[Anaxilus]

Quote:

but I remember two years ago how the ES3X, UE11 & UE10 were regarded by many as a BIG step up from top-tier universals.

Yes, but the top tier universals two years ago didn't include W4s, EX1000's, FADs, Ortofons, etc.  Customs have moved on too.  Still, there's too many subjective variables for anyone to make a universal claim either way.  I know how I feel about what I've heard and that's as much as I can say.

 

[music_4321]

 
Quote:

Yes, but the top tier universals two years ago didn't include W4s, EX1000's, FADs, Ortofons, etc.  Customs have moved on too.  Still, there's too many subjective variables for anyone to make a universal claim either way.  I know how I feel about what I've heard and that's as much as I can say.
 

 
Well, they did include the UM3X, CK100, W3, TF10, IE8 & SE530 . At the time I started the "Customs Overrated" thread two years ago the best universal I'd heard was the UM3X, and that was still the case only 3 months ago. And to me the UM3Xs deliver 85-90% of the SQ my ES3X offer (and the W4s about 95% and the EX1000s 100%). 
 
85-90% of the SQ offered by my $850 customs is still very much worth it if, like me, people get the right fit, which in the case of the UM3X is practically guaranteed (unlike  the TF10). One of the great things about highly regarded top-tier universals is their pretty good resale value.
 
I know my views are not shared by most customs owners and, as you say, there's quite a few - though not necessarily all subjective - variables at play. I also think customs owners, and particularly high-end customs owners, would find it much harder to admit that a good top-tier universal can seriously compete with their much more expensive 'toys'. There's the odd case here and there of a head-fier stating just that, but those few posts are almost invariably ignored. The psychological aspects of owning a (pricey) custom IEM are largely overlooked - for instance, if you've spent a fortune, chances are you'll unconsciously try to convince yourself this new IEM is (much) better than anything you've had. The "law of diminishing returns" is quite real yet it's hardly ever mentioned and often conveniently forgotten in favour of hype.

 

[shotgunshane]

I don't know if I'll ever venture into customs as I found I didn't like an earful of acrylic when I had some TF10's reshelled.  The fit was comfortable but they never 'disappeared' for me.  In contrast I really like my silicone UM56 sleeves for my W4's being that they are just tips and do disappear for me.  In any event I find my JVC ha-fx700's sound remarkably like full sized headphones with quick and easy fit. I really couldn't ask for more.

 

[wind016]

For those that have heard the EX1000s, did you find them non-fatiguing? Would you characterize it as almost electrostatic-like in effortless, non-fatiguing sound? I'm just trying to get an idea of why opinions can be so varied.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

For those that have heard the EX1000s, did you find them non-fatiguing? Would you characterize it as almost electrostatic-like in effortless, non-fatiguing sound? I'm just trying to get an idea of why opinions can be so varied.

From my LIMITED listen of the demo.  I wouldn't say they are so much effortless like an electrostat as much as they are a more delicate and refined sounding phone if you catch the nuance.  I can't think of any IEM I've heard that sounds like a Stat w/ the HD598 coming closest in a 'budget' headphone.
 
The treble was fatiguing for me using the Hybrids but I know treble is a somewhat manageable aspect in IEMs w/ the right tips, to a point.  After which you might have to worry about the rest of the spectrum being impacted.  That was certainly the case for me and the FX700's.
 
I know others have no issues w/ the treble and I have no idea how much eartime was on the demo I heard.  I do know some like myself are simply sensitive to treble spikes in certain areas.  For instance the peaks in the ER4P, CK10 and Monster Coppers were too much for me.  Especially the prototype B2 w/ the non-production silver cable.  Holy-Moly!
 

 

[james444]

Without having tried customs, I tend to think along music_4321's lines (btw thanks for your ongoing nice impressions on the EX1000), mainly because I find no BIG gains by up/sidegrading from one top universal to another. So why should there be BIG improvements with going custom, since they use no magically different technology? Nevertheless I'm thinking about trying one pair of top custom IEMs to settle this question for me.

It's just not so easy to decide which one to go for. I like IEMs that "disappear" in my ears and among my 4 favorites (EX1000, FI-BA-SS, W4, FX700) the Sonys and FADs do this best, because the former are very light and the latter very tiny. I too am very sceptic about whether I'd be able to "forget about" a hard acrylic shell in my ear canals, even with perfect fit


Moreover, I hate occlusion effects and it's no coincidence that 3 of my 4 favorite universals are vented. The only closed one (W4) is already borderline annoying in this regard with universal tips, that's why I decided to take a pass on the UM56 for the time being.


Last but not least, I'm no professional musician and want my soundstage in front of me and not stage-monitor-like (cough, SM3, cough) all around my head. Sadly there's little information about this particular aspect in the custom threads, since most folks just don't seem to care about it.


Having said that, I'm in no particular hurry to try customs, because I already feel very grateful for being able to choose from such a variety of excellent universals. Speaking of which, with both my EX1000 and W4 loaned to fellow members, I've spent more time with the FI-BA-SS lately and must say these have the most stunning clarity and transparency I've ever come across. Even though this means that they're unforgiving even of minor recording/encoding flaws, about 70-80% of my favorite recordings still sound extremely impressive. I know they're insanely priced, but on the other hand I'd really like to know if ANY of the customs out there would be able to keep up with that level of clarity and transparency.

 

[james444]

For those that have heard the EX1000s, did you find them non-fatiguing? Would you characterize it as almost electrostatic-like in effortless, non-fatiguing sound? I'm just trying to get an idea of why opinions can be so varied.

My take on this is opinions are so varied because of the more-than-average problematic fit with these phones and possibly also varying sensibility to certain treble spikes.


As for me, once I had settled the fit issue they became one of the most effortless and non-fatiguing IEMs I've ever been listening to.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by james444 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Without having tried customs, I tend to think along music_4321's lines (btw thanks for your ongoing nice impressions on the EX1000), mainly because I find no BIG gains by up/sidegrading from one top universal to another. So why should there be BIG improvements with going custom, since they use no magically different technology? 
 
Not quite true.  I've not seen one universal that uses the same bass drivers as the ES5 or IERM.  Not one universal offers the space for optimal driver placement like a custom and the room for the same driver and crossover packages.  I certainly will not say all customs are better than all universals.  For a fact some customs do not hold up to some universals but we are talking about cream versus cream here.  Until someone makes a universal that can emulate or hang w/ my ES5 I'm not remotely interested in 99% of the universals out there anymore.  I had 20 minutes w/ the W4 but none of that could match 2 minutes w/ the ES5 for me.  I think the IERM and DBA/EQ5 is a much closer contest but still about 85% of the way there and you would probably have to combine the best of both to get that number realistically. 

Last but not least, I'm no professional musician and want my soundstage in front of me and not stage-monitor-like (cough, SM3, cough) all around my head. Sadly there's little information about this particular aspect in the custom threads, since most folks just don't seem to care about it.
 
This is an odd extrapolation.  I HATE the SM3's SS and neither the ES5 or IERM do anything like that.  To my ears if there is less discussion of SS w/ customs it's becuase they do a better job of offering a coherent, realistic SS versus most universals that can do some weird stuff.  The statement above should offer an explanation as to why that may be true.

Having said that, I'm in no particular hurry to try customs, because I already feel very grateful for being able to choose from such a variety of excellent universals. Speaking of which, with both my EX1000 and W4 loaned to fellow members, I've spent more time with the FI-BA-SS lately and must say these have the most stunning clarity and transparency I've ever come across. Even though this means that they're unforgiving even of minor recording/encoding flaws, about 70-80% of my favorite recordings still sound extremely impressive. I know they're insanely priced, but on the other hand I'd really like to know if ANY of the customs out there would be able to keep up with that level of clarity and transparency.
 
I would love to hear the famed FI-BA-SS someday.  I'd love to know how well it can match my ES5 and IERM at shredding bad recordings.  Ever since the DBA I've become a bit of a clarity and transparency freak.  Also the EX1000 again to make sure I'm not totally misguided.  

 

 

[james444]

^ Well, it may be a different bass driver, but still common BA technology. And there are other opinions to be found in the W4 thread, claiming that these are pretty close to customs.

Regarding SS, I wasn't implying that all customs have SM3-like SS, just that there's little information especially about the forward projection aspect to be found. A lot of folks here are musicians and probably don't mind a stage monitor like presentation, but for me it's a deal breaker. E.g. after having read quite a lot about the UM Miracles and gotten PM recommendations about these being "the ones", I was quite surprised when joker wrote in his first impressions that haters of the SM3 SS need not apply. Maybe my statement wasn't clear enough, I just don't want to spend a lot on a custom and end up with an SM3-like soundstage, just because no one thought that aspect important enough to point it out.


Lastly my EX1000 are currently on an US tour en route to Kunlun > Confispect > EricP and you can be the next stop if you want. The FADs have just come back from rawrster (why didn't you ask earlier?) and will stay within the EU for the time being, but I can eventually get them to you later this year if you're still interested then.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

^ Well, it may be a different bass driver, but still common BA technology. And there are other opinions to be found in the W4 thread, claiming that these are pretty close to customs.

Your right, a magic laser didn't shrink David Bruebeck and stuff him into my IEMs (though it seems like it sometimes, hehe).  TBH, I'm not quite sold on MA's either.  So far I think they exist for packaging convenience more than absolute SQ.  I've heard some BA's that reproduce the low-end better than any MA I've heard to date so I'm not sold on the concept yet.  Sounds good in theory and sounds pretty good in application.  It's just not the magic bullet or panacea.  However, much like DACs I'm going to have to say implementation has quite a bit to do w/ it.  I mean look at F1, it's just a V8. 

  When we say close, the questions is close to WHICH customs?  I'm not quite sure why 'customs' gets all jumbled together as single entity.  So I'll just offer the inverse juxtaposition.  If someone said 'universals suck and can never match the lowliest of customs' that would be ridiculous.

Lastly my EX1000 are currently on an US tour en route to Kunlun > Confispect > EricP and you can be the next stop if you want. The FADs have just come back from rawrster (why didn't you ask earlier?) and will stay within the EU for the time being, but I can eventually get them to you later this year if you're still interested then.
 
Sure thing James.  If I had know they were yours doing the US tour.....oopsie.  >.<  No hurry, I'll just have to make do w/ my sidegrade ES5.  

  I think I'll manage till then.

 
 

 

[Nachkebia]

This might sound crazy but properly amped, I think i prefer R0 to GR10..

 

[Haonan]

For those that have heard the EX1000s, did you find them non-fatiguing? Would you characterize it as almost electrostatic-like in effortless, non-fatiguing sound? I'm just trying to get an idea of why opinions can be so varied.

MDR-EX1000

MDR-EX700

According to Sonove's blog, the EX1000 comes with a treble spike around the 5.6kHz area, which is considered the upper-mid highs. I think when it comes to many contemporary mainstream music or rock genres, this frequency peak can prove to be fatal or irritating depending on how tolerant you are towards sibilant phones, since we all know that treble peaks like this often can make sibilance appear more apparant in most mainstream song recordings with vocals. (as vocal-centric songs usually rely pretty much on the midrange to shine) Also as far as I can remember based on the past EX700 discussion threads I have read around here as well as in some Taiwanese audio forums, this is probably one particular area that some EX700 owners didn't quite like about which is the reason why he MDR-EX700 IEMs probably did not received much fanfare here compared to other japanese manufacturer IEMs back then during the same period. (the ATH-CK10 was released around the same period as MDR-EX700, and as far as I remember the CK10 seemed to be much more well-received in Japan and Taiwan, based on past user reviews)

That said, I have not heard the EX1000 myself yet, so it's probably hard for me to comment on their sound inducing fatigue symptoms. If there's one thing I would like to concur, it's that I wholly agree with what james444 has said, as according to my personal experience with some many universal IEMs that comes with extending treble peaks in the highs (both the CK10/CK100 from Audio-technica are actually notorious for this) you can actually tame the sibilance effect pretty much with better fitting eartips since most IEMs do change their sound being tip-dependant, and with my own CK100, I use the Comply TX200s or ER-CK100 foamies to actually achieve this, when I need to listen to some "harsh" recordings such as some japanese rock or poorly mastered acoustic live concert tracks, in order to improve the comfort for long hours listening and to reduce fatigue feeling.

 

[Haonan]

This might sound crazy but properly amped, I think i prefer R0 to GR10..

? If you are originally talking about comparing both the Head-direct RE0 versus the Grado GR10, I don't think there's even a slight possibility they can actually compare on the same level, since one's based on a dynamic transducer, while another is simply based on moving armature technology. Also one is made in China, while another in Japan. I'm sure in terms of build quality issues they will be on a different level as well. Buying in-ear monitors you don't just buy it for the sound, but you buy as a whole package as well. At least that's the basic principle for me when it comes to shopping for IEMs personally.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

MDR-EX1000

 

Hate to say it but that is EXACTLY how I heard them.  The ER4P was too much for me so the EX1000 in that form above did me no favors.  Of course using only stock Sony Hybrids.  I think 'stabbed in the ears w/ a knife' were my words in January.
 

 

[Kunlun]

Quote:

From my LIMITED listen of the demo.  I wouldn't say they are so much effortless like an electrostat as much as they are a more delicate and refined sounding phone if you catch the nuance.

Yes, that's how I hear it, too.
 
With custom silicone tips and a well-broken in Ex1000, the treble is reasonably smooth for me. While the treble is emphasized over the midrange, it's not harsh or sharp-sounding to my ears. I haven't given it a long audition, but I imagine its pretty non-fatiguing. I think as one grows accustomed to the ex1000, the sound sig just grows more enchanting. I like them quite a bit more than the jh16 demo I heard.