Orthodynamic Roundup

[vid]

I might do that at some point, though I don't want to rush in and add a bunch of stuff that's all wrong.
 
While digging around, I came across this site, which seems to include the complete history of KWH. They were apparently called HESCHO at some point before the late 1960s, which explains why this page talks about Hescho (man, this stuff is complicated).
 
Anyways, the history page has this bit of information, translated by Google: "1980: Start of production of ceramic sealing discs, headphones HOK 80, high-density magnetic head ferrites, jaw implants."
 
Ceramics, jaw implants and ortho headphones, makes sense.

 

[c61746961]

I'm sorry I can't read the whole 1246 pages of this thread so... Is there a definite favorite ortho?

 

[rhythmdevils]

As much as I like the vintage stuffs, I think the T50rp is the best place to start for someone new to orthos who wants something affordable and wants to tinker a bit.  They are the easiest ortho to get to sound decent IMO and they're easily available and not that expensive.  Plus, there's a whole thread full of people eager to help any and all questions.  But if youre up for a bit more of a challenge or you want something more unique or you're eager to become a member of Team Cheap Bastards, people are happy to help here as well with the vintage models.  IME
 
Edit:  It also depends on preferences of course, as Leeperry says below. 

 

[leeperry]

 

Is there a definite favorite ortho?

 
I'd say it all depends on what you're looking for, technologically more advanced doesn't necessarily mean "better" sounding. As usual, there's only one way to find out ^^

 

[nick n]

While on the subject of the new T50rp's last time I looked in on the other Big thread there ( a while ago ) someone had mentioned the newT20 (or was it the T40?) has the exact same drivers lately and that it was simply the housing/baffle that was tuned differently. Is this the case?  Tempt me further.

 

[c61746961]

It seems I already own the "definite favorite" ortho (sorta like the M50 of orthos), oh well, back to tinkering then...

 

[rhythmdevils]

If you already own a T50rp that makes it a different question!

 

[leeperry]

 

It seems I already own the "definite favorite" ortho (sorta like the M50 of orthos), oh well, back to tinkering then...

Deep bass is flabby as can get, that's the main problem w/ the T50RP to my ears...no amount of secret damping or magical thinking will change that. All the graphs you see use amateur equipment that cannot measure lows properly, so it's all just a big cloud of smoke at the end of the day. And the headstage is dead boring too.

 

[charliex]

What's the differences between the T-50rp's and the T-40rp's ??
I have the T40rp (unmodded) and am wondering if I should keep them or sell them and if I keep them what should be done mod-wise to bring out their best qualities. ?
Or should I sell them, bank the money towards a pair of T-50rp's ?

 

[vid]

The HOK cups were indeed a pain to get open, though not a massive pain. I had to resort to breaking one edge of the baffle on both cups (the slim edge next to a clip hole), otherwise there was no way I would've been able to leverage the baffle enough. Still, the clips themselves are intact, so it could be worse, and now the phones are pretty easy to get open. However, I assume the plastic wears out a little bit each time I pry them apart with a metal screwdriver, so another type of stick would be better in the long run.
 
It was pretty late in the evening so I didn't try any fancy padding schemes. I took out the original felt puck + the squished yellow foam + the very beautiful black plastic disc. In the center of the cup there's a ring-shaped protrusion – no idea why it needs to be there at all – so I filled the protrusion with blu-tack to smooth it out. On top of that I cut a round piece of thick (maybe 3 mm?) felt that covered the entire bottom area of the cup, except I cut a hole in the middle of the felt so that the protrusion could stick through it, then on top of that I put the circular, thinned bit that I had cut out. The felt is probably too thick, but it was the only type I had at that moment. I also blu-tacked the driver onto the baffle like ericj has done. I didn't put the original felt puck back.
 
The original confusing sound is less so now. Imaging feels better, and overall the sound is relatively more coherent – although the soundstage is just as tiny as before (it really is tiny). I'm not sure if anything else changed at all. Anyways, that was a rough attempt at doing something inside the HOK; next I'll take out the thick felt, get some lighter felt or some other material to damp the vents, then I'll seal the baffle and see how that is.
 
I have to say, though, that while testing the phones today, I heard the greatest rendering of vocaling that I've experienced from headphones in a good while. I'll have to check that bit against a reference pair tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it was a near-K 501-level experience. (Though the K 501 is much better overall, just for the record.)

 

[c61746961]

I will focus on improving what I already have then. I've found it pretty hard to mod this pair and remain relatively unbiased during the post-modding listening trials, I'm never certain, so I'll proceed to list specific issues to gain some insight from you crazy folk:

5) Regardless of the flabby bass, I haven't quite achieved a flat response down to the lowest octaves, the only mod that made a definite change was getting rid of the thin white felt behind the driver assembly and installing a piece of hard felt with a hole cut in the middle, this seems to have loosened the bass somewhat. I still have the stock vent felt installed. I'm also using the SHR840 pads.

1) I haven't been able to completely rid my pair of the 1 KHz peak and chamber resonances, so far I've tried stuffing the cup with varying amounts of cotton, cellulose sponge fragments and small balls of crumpled toilet paper, the latter seemed to achieve more due to both dispersion and absorption, but I'm a little worried they will vibrate against each other and cause distortion in the bass.

7) The perceived soundstage depth seemed to vary a lot between mods, I'm not sure whether there is an obvious relation between cup volume and soundstage dimensions, I've found I enjoy a sphere-like soundstage more than very distinct L-R panning. What is considered over-damping with this pair? These mods seem to yield a very desirable FR, and the cups appear to be stuffed to the max. I don't know if I can get ahold of the frizzy bear fur, though.

269) The high mids remain fairly recessed no matter what, and this contributes to the perception of somewhat fuzzy imaging, I've played with EQ and rising the energy in this area seems to make the instruments and voices snap into place, I really like this and would love to solve it acoustically.

2.71828) I have no issues with the highs, as long as they don't become suddenly too recessed after a mod.

I don't have easy access to either dynamat or silverstone / paxmate, so I haven't played with such materials... I try to believe they are not necessary to meet my goals, but... you know.

Thanks in advance for any advice you may give me.

 

[wualta]

Quote:

 
So, based on that, RFT was apparently a kind of Soviet-type umbrella name to unify the gains of the people.

Yeah, that's good enough. I've been to all the web pages you mention and came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be too far off the mark if I considered RFT to be the centralized design bureau that decided what das Volk needed and got KWH and other concerns to make the parts or in some cases make the whole item. I suspect that KWH made the drivers only and other firms were brought in to supply the other bits. Where final assembly took place... KWH? back at RFT? Don't know. Perhaps some of our German friends can fill us in sometime. In the meantime, the real mystery is: where did the design of that driver originate? Was it a copy of a PMB driver?  and if so, what are the differences?
 
You'll wonder, as I did, exactly what the thick felt disc is supposed to do, since removing it makes little difference to the sound. The same applies to the discs used in my TH-700-- the drivers don't appear to have a bass resonance that needs damping.
 
KWH does indeed have a fascinating history. What role did ferrites play in WW2 electronics, aside from tuning slugs in radios? 


Quote:

I don't want to rush in and add a bunch of stuff that's all wrong.

Never add bunches of wrong stuff. It makes things go bad, in a rush.
 
 
Quote:

I'm sorry I can't read the whole 1246 pages of this thread so... Is there a definite favorite ortho?

The short but factual answer is: no. You've already seen diametrical opposition on one ortho alone in a matter of two or three posts. There are sentimental favorites,  I-got-this-rare-one-cheap favorites, there are sonic favorites, bang : buck-hour favorites  ( ie, fun divided by [money times modding aggravation] ), this-is-the-only-one-currently-for-sale favorites, this-sounds-like-my-electrostats favorites.... all kinds of favorites, and they're all definite, even defiant. Sounds like you've already picked one, so welcome, good luck, take photos, don't forget to cuss loudly, report back and add to the 1246 pages of knowledge and emotion. Since the T50RP has now become a subculture of its own, it would be best to ask specific questions about specific mods over in the T50RP thread(s). If you have general questions that have relevance to all orthodom, feel free to ask 'em here.
 
And hey, you could always buy another ortho sometime. If you can get good bass from the T50RP, you're ready to tackle just about any ortho known.
 
 
Quote:

1) What's the differences between the T-50rp's and the T-40rp's ??
2) I have the T40rp (unmodded) and am wondering if I should keep them or sell them and if I keep them what should be done mod-wise to bring out their best qualities. ? Or should I sell them, bank the money towards a pair of T-50rp's ?

1) Near as I can tell, the enclosure (no vents) and nothing else, assuming we're talking about the Mk II version of the T40RP with the T50RPlike driver inside. Fostex changes the pads every once in awhile, so those might be different as well, but not very different.
 
2) I think the T40RP Mk II has been discovered by the T50RP people by now. It is, after all, a near-twin of the T50RP. The T50RP folks should have some modding and buy/sell answers for you. 

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

Quote:

 next I'll take out the thick felt, get some lighter felt or some other material to damp the vents, then I'll seal the baffle and see how that is.
 

You REALLY have to seal that baffle up good to get the bass flowing. The bass that it's got that is. If there is still no bass, check the pads. There should be enough bass to get rock music sound good. Maybe not the latest dance music with it's lowest bass rumble though, but vintage orthos have problems with that very lowest bass in general.
The problem is of course that to seal the baffle, you also need to seal the holes you need to open up the cups later if you want to change anything inside. Tricky.
(By the way, you should not need to damage the cups to open them.)

 

[e2pathos]

Hey everybody, I tried making a thread about this but nobody seems to want to reply.
 
I have had my M50s for a few months past a year now and I really like them, but it's time to start ugprading.
 
I have narrowed my choices down to either the Denon D2000s(Dynamic) or the HifiMan HE-400(Brand new ortho). I just have a few questions I hope some knowledgeable ortho-heads could answer for me.
 
I really like electronic music and a strong sub bass, now I know that nobody has really listened to the HE-400s yet, I hear they have a really good low end though. But comparing other planars to dynamics, how do they work with low/sub bass, do you get a deep smooth rumble, or is it just kinda lacking in that end? Don't get me wrong I love the whole spectrum of sounds and I know that the HE-400s are definitely more balanced than the D200s, but people say that the sub bass o the D2000s is so nice, especially for electronic music, but sometimes can mud up the more quiet highs in a song.
 
So my ultimate question is, with your guys' prior knowledge to planars compared to dynamics (since we don't have a real grasp on the he-400s yet). Might I be disappointed with the low bass end of them compared to dynamic headphones? I will be driving either of these cans with an E7/E9 combo since both of them are easy to drive.
 
I only have one more day to decide if I want to save 50 bucks on the he-400 preorder special, they have a 30 day return policy, so if I really hate the sound I can just return em and lose only 14 bucks shipping and buy the d2000s. Hope somebody can shed some light for me

 

[joelpearce]

I will focus on improving what I already have then. I've found it pretty hard to mod this pair and remain relatively unbiased during the post-modding listening trials, I'm never certain, so I'll proceed to list specific issues to gain some insight from you crazy folk:

1) I haven't been able to completely rid my pair of the 1 KHz peak and chamber resonances, so far I've tried stuffing the cup with varying amounts of cotton, cellulose sponge fragments and small balls of crumpled toilet paper, the latter seemed to achieve more due to both dispersion and absorption, but I'm a little worried they will vibrate against each other and cause distortion in the bass.

269) The high mids remain fairly recessed no matter what, and this contributes to the perception of somewhat fuzzy imaging, I've played with EQ and rising the energy in this area seems to make the instruments and voices snap into place, I really like this and would love to solve it acoustically.


I don't have easy access to either dynamat or silverstone / paxmate, so I haven't played with such materials... I try to believe they are not necessary to meet my goals, but... you know.

Thanks in advance for any advice you may give me.

Stuffing the cup can have good or bad consequences. A lot of people shot me down after I used Rock Wool insulation (Roxul Safe n Sound) in mine, but it did quite a few of the things you are trying to do. It kept the highs nice, focused the mids, and didn't kill the bass. Since it's in the cup, I really can't imagine there being health concerns either.

Without question, adding something to absorb the reflections between the baffle and your ears might also be a big help. The paxmate foam really is ideal, but suede, felt, etc. can also make a big difference.

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