[nc8000]

Or to please a sponsor/advertiser. Just a thought ....

 

[M-13]

Sure, I can agree with that... however:
 
There are companies lined up to be sponsors, many many sponsors. On the other hand members would quickly leave in droves if they were not allowed to level fair complaints against them. So I guess it would be a balancing act for the mods, to see which complaints are legitimate and factually accurate.
 
This guy gets mentioned a lot in other threads too. Remind me what advanced degrees in electrical engineering does he hold again? and from where? Just puzzled because he likes to correct engineers. If he holds multiple degrees from reputable universities, then my sincere apologies for ever doubting him. I will go back and read his site cover-to-cover (I'm not joking).
Quote:

Or to please a sponsor/advertiser. Just a thought ....

 

 

[plin]

This thread got slight of topic, and I triggered this, so I apologize to everybody for this.
Please forgive me about this and ignore this post if you feel so, it is off-topic.
 
I have to add a few more lines because I cannot let those who are not present here defenceless.
 
Quote:

... and push his own product to make money of course.

 
As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong here, he hasn’t made any profit. On the contrary, he freely contribute, according to some reviews, a great and low cost head amp (O2).

 
Quote:

Just puzzled because he likes to correct engineers. If he holds multiple degrees from reputable universities, then my sincere apologies for ever doubting him. 

 
I don’t believe that an engineer doesn’t make mistakes. I am an engineer and I have made a few bad engineering choices!  Multiple degrees from reputable universities are not necessary lead to  great engineered products. On the other hand, Mark Levinson (the man) had not really studied electronics in universities, but that haven't stop him to make exceptionally good amplifiers (in the past, when he actively designed the ML products). 

 

 

[M-13]

He doesn't make any profit? My sincere apologies then... I was under the impression that he actually sells them? Are you saying his price is just the raw cost of the parts and his labor is free? (Yes, I know he supplies instructions and parts for people to DIY as well)
 
Are you saying the O2 is not in competition with the Schiit Asgard? I know one is portable and cheaper but many people who can afford the O2 can also afford the Asgard.

Engineers are not perfect of course, nobody is, but if you want to discuss an engineering design flaw, it helps to have the right training no? It would certainly add credibility, especially if you're going to correct guys at Schiit Audio, who might know a thing or two about engineering amps.
 
 
 
Quote:

, he hasn’t made any profit. On the contrary, he freely contribute an, according to some reviews, a great and low cost head amp (O2).
 
 
I don’t believe that an engineer doesn’t make mistakes. I am an engineer and I have made a few bad engineering choices!  Multiple degrees from reputable universities are not necessary lead to  great engineered products. On the other hand, Mark Levinson (the man) had not really studied electronics in universities, but that doesn’t stop him to make exceptionally good amplifiers. 

 

 

 

[Tilpo]

He doesn't make any profit? My sincere apologies then... I was under the impression that he actually sells them? Are you saying his price is just the raw cost of the parts and his labor is free? (Yes, I know he supplies instructions and parts for people to DIY as well)
 
Are you saying the O2 is not in competition with the Schiit Asgard? I know one is portable and cheaper but many people who can afford the O2 can also afford the Asgard.

Engineers are not perfect of course, nobody is, but if you want to discuss an engineering design flaw, it helps to have the right training no? It would certainly add credibility, especially if you're going to correct guys at Schiit Audio, who might know a thing or two about engineering amps.
 
 
 


 

He doesn't sell anything. He simply designed an amplifier and published the schematics. It's just that somehow the O2 has been pushed in the mainstream, in contrary to many other DIY amps of similar price and quality.
All the PCB's and kits are group buys, and are not even hosted on his own site, but rather sites such as Headwize and DIYaudio.

 

[M-13]

Wow... it's a shame then that Head-Fi has banned a Robin-Hood hero of the amp world, who only does charity for the good of the people and speaks only the truth. Can we start a petition to have this guy back? Since the O2 can drive anything I think we should also stop discussing more powerful and unnecessary amps from Schiit Audio and other corrupt sponsors who control this place like puppet masters. Who needs degrees? Who needs experts? WE KNOW BETTER!

 
Quote:

He doesn't sell anything. He simply designed an amplifier and published the schematics. It's just that somehow the O2 has been pushed in the mainstream, in contrary to many other DIY amps of similar price and quality.
All the PCB's and kits are group buys, and are not even hosted on his own site, but rather sites such as Headwize and DIYaudio.

 

 

[plin]

 
Back on topic now, shall we?
There is a debate about how much strong amp HE-500 needs to show its full potential. From an engineering perspective you do not really need too much power. HifiMan recommends, according to a 6moons article, 1W (I suppose per channel). This 1W would give about 117dB SPL peak. This figure is pretty high, even if we consider the necessary 20dB headroom. Additionally, according to the above mentioned article of the banned ex-member, 110dB peak would suffice in the majority of music for most people.
To get 110dB peak one would need a mere 200mW of amp output power. If  this is true, then why some respected fellow head-fiers have repeatedly stated that much bigger amp power made HE-500 to reveal its true potential?
I really do not know. It is a mystery to me that orthos need so much power. 

 

[M-13]

Where is this 20dB headroom figure coming from? Is this just a guess or opinion or are there actual calculations behind this precise number? Why is it not 19dB or 22dB?
 
So Fang Bian, a man who holds a Ph.D. in nano science, and is smart enough to create his own line of Planar Magnetic headphones, recommends 1W per channel to drive the HE-500, which he has engineered and created. Why are we correcting him again?
Quote:

 
Back on topic now, shall we?
There is a debate about how much strong amp HE-500 needs to show its full potential. From an engineering perspective you do not really need too much power. HifiMan recommends, according to a 6moons article, 1W (I suppose per channel). This 1W would give about 117dB SPL peak. This figure is pretty high, even if we consider the necessary 20dB headroom. Additionally, according to the above mentioned article of the banned ex-member, 110dB peak would suffice in the majority of music for most people.
To get 110dB peak one would need a mere 200mW of amp output power. If  this is true, then why some respected fellow head-fiers have repeatedly stated that much bigger amp power made HE-500 to reveal its true potential?
I really do not know. It is a mystery to me that orthos need so much power. 

 

 

[plin]

Quote:

Where is this 20dB headroom figure coming from? Is this just a guess or opinion or are there actual calculations behind this precise number? Why is it not 19dB or 22dB?
 
So Fang Bian, a man who holds a Ph.D. in nano science, and is smart enough to create his own line of Planar Magnetic headphones, recommends 1W per channel to drive the phones he has engineered and created. Why are we correcting him again?

Of course it is not a precise number, it is just a rough approximation based on the dynamics of most modern music. Fang has correctly stated the 1W figure because he needs to cover even the classical music lovers (in this case you need about 30dB of headroom).
 
I am not correcting Fang. I just said that lots of head-fiers used HE-500 in much more powerfull amps (than 1W) and stated that it really scaled well. I do not understand why, but I have no reason to doubt this statement. 
 
You can judge yourself how much headroom you need. Open your favorite tracks with an audio editor and calculate the difference between peak and mean dB level. 

 

[ardilla]

We must not forget that Mr Fang originally shipped the HE-500 with a 1/8' connector because the HE-500 was originally launched as the "portable" version of the HE-6... 
 
 
Skylab wrote in his REVIEW that the both the Leben 300XS (1W) and the Woo WA2 (Stated by Woo with 6080 tubes to give 310mW @32Ω and 400mW @60Ω, however I do not know which tubes Skuylab used in the review) drove the HE-500 with "no issues".
 
baka1969 wrote HERE in his "Sibling Rivalry" article that he preferred the WA2 over the WA6SE (2000mW @32Ω) with the HE-500. 
 
edit: Here is all the Woo amplifiers specifications: http://wooaudio.com/docs/wooaudio_amplifier_comparisons.pdf

 
Quote:

So Fang Bian, a man who holds a Ph.D. in nano science, and is smart enough to create his own line of Planar Magnetic headphones, recommends 1W per channel to drive the HE-500, which he has engineered and created. Why are we correcting him again?


 

 

 

[plin]

Quote:

Skylab wrote in his REVIEW that the both the Leben 300XS (1W) and the Woo WA2 (Stated by Woo with 6080 tubes to give 310mW @32Ω and 400mW @60Ω, however I do not know which tubes Skuylab used in the review) drove the HE-500 with "no issues".
 
baka1969 wrote HERE that he preferred the WA2 over the WA6SE (2000mW @32Ω) with the HE-500. 
 

Very good info about this 'hot' topic, thank you ardilla.
 
 

 

[ardilla]

^ I think there is more to driving a headphone nicely than rated output power
 
Another important issue is that given the totally flat impedance curve of the HE-500 and most other orthos like the LCD-2, the output impedance of the amplifier is almost irrellevant......

 

[ardilla]

Further, Mike at Headfonia writes: 
"The level of power you get from the E11 is really shocking as I find this amplifier to have enough power to drive the newly released Hifiman HE-500 Orthodynamic headphone (89dB, 50 Ohms) to ear deafening levels" http://www.headfonia.com/fiio-e11-portable-amplifier/
 
6moons review:
"

Our portable players can drive it well" http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hifiman4/1.html
 
But i do not say that a more powerful amp will drive them better.  But again, referring to baka1969's usings, power isn't everything.

 

[M-13]

Yup I was aware of this. The model name was actually HE-6P, before it was HE-500. I've pretty much read everything there is to read about the HE-500 on this site and others. I bought the HE-500 when it was $899 and thought it was worth every penny. But yes, I agree with your premise that there is more to driving a headphone than just raw power (voltage/current), but it sure helps to have enough. I believe the many many people who have attested that the HE-500 soars to amazing levels when driven from speaker amps or the Darkstar. In fact Fang was the first person to demonstrate driving the HE-6 from speaker amps.
 
Well the O2 isn't a multi-thousand dollar amp from Leben/WooAudio and in that same 6moons article you quote they also say:
 
"As my review of Schiit's Lyr declared, for $449 and orthos there's no better or more powerful amp I'm presently aware of. With the HE-500's claim to be happy with more proletarian amps, I'd have to work my way down the power ladder to determine minimum drive requirements. But for the main course the Lyr was the natural mate."
 
As for the E11, can't say Mike is wrong or right since I don't own the E11, but what I can say is that the E9 cannot drive the HE-500 to potential. Oh it gets pretty darn loud but it clips, misses a lot of details. I think Fang also says that the HE-500 can be driven from portable Hifiman players... so yes... you get sound... yes its loud enough... but no it's not driven even close to potential. But if that's what you want to do, then that's fine it's your money and life.
 
I'm confused by people who buy $699/$899/$995 headphones, but don't want to spend a penny on amps and drive them straight from their laptops... or get tiny battery powered amps, and then have other members come here, crunch some basic numbers and tell them, yup you are driving them pretty good. The truth is that the HE-500 sounds close to mid-fi when driven from my E9. The HD650 sounds just as good, and I'm pretty sure the E9 is a much more powerful amp than most portables, and not too bad for the price.
 
Just my thoughts of course, IMHO, YMMV, etc,etc...
 
 
Quote:

We must not forget that Mr Fang originally shipped the HE-500 with a 1/8' connector because the HE-500 was originally launched as the "portable" version of the HE-6... 


 

 

 

[ardilla]

 
 
The real message is that the HE-500 is a great headphone even if you do not have a powerful amp.
 
That it is even better with the Dark Star makes for a good future upgrade