[ClieOS]

Lets affix this to all our threads than:

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Just kidding

But seriously, I think this thread, as like many other discussion here, are argued/discussed on ground mostly based on the subjectivity of different members. I can imagine whether amping KSC75 (or even iBud) shows 'significant' improvement can also be argued

btw, how do we define 'significant' over 'marginally good' over 'barely audible' on a standard we all can agree with?

 

[fraseyboy]

When externally amping my HD580's and comparing it to straight from my H120, the difference to me is VERY VERY small. Hardly noticeable in fact.

But when comparing the HD580's from out of my H120 to HD580's from out of my Audigy 2 ZS's headphone out, there is a HUGE difference. On the A2ZS, the 580's sound dull, flat, compressed, bassless... Terrible.

I don't think all headphone outs of consumer devices are created equal.

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact I will say, confidently, without even hearing, that the difference between the amps in my iBook and iPod is greater, is more dramatic, than the difference between a Heed Canamp and a Singlepower. How can I make such a statement without testing? Because the amp in my iPod won't drive the 580s at all without cranking it nearly all the way up. The iBook drives them easily and they sound pretty good.

I own all four, and your statement is simply not true. The difference between a Heed Canamp and a Singlepower Extreme with PSU is just as dramatic as the difference between an ipod and the headphone out of an ibook, perhaps moreso, depending on the headphone. What kind of point are you trying to make by playing a guessing game that only announces that you don't know what you're talking about? You criticize members you've decided make exaggerated claims, and they certainly exist, but who are you to decide what's an exaggeration and who is making inaccurate claims when you don't have the knowledge to make such judgments?

Quote:

What I'm saying, my friend, is that the people who say these phones cannot be driven properly without a dedicated amp (and without hearing all the un-amped sources people are listening through) are speaking out of a lack of experience as much as those who might say that there's no difference between an an iPod and a Woo 2. It's a similarly huge assumption. And I'm further saying that when people indulge in such broad hyperbole as "HD600s can't be driven properly without a dedicated home amp" or my new BlutoPower Beta 2 made the same music, source, dac and cans sound completely different, it just blows everything else away!!!!!," before the paper cut has healed from opening the box, they don't serve the community, or their own credibility, well.

Why are you grandstanding? There will always be folks posting out their arse. It's the Internet. Often, those who make blanket claims and speak in superlatives are new to this hobby, lack experience with headphone gear, and are posting from enthusiasm and a deficiency in language skills. The benefit of a forum like this is that folks who have experience with a wide range of amps, headphones, and sources usually tame the hyperbole with common sense. Since your blanket conjecture about the benefits or lack thereof of amps and headphones you've never heard is as misguided as a newbie posting about how X is great without reference points, how are you serving the community? Equally harmful, equally wrong, negative-image bullhooey.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif This forum IMO as any other specialized forum is not for the average Joe that will be satisfied with an ear-bud out of a Ipod, we know a little more than that, and we are looking for more than that, what matters for the average user, is IMO irrelevant here, as we are not like the average users, we do not have that luxury anymore, otherwise we will not be here wasting our time posting about this fascinating hobby... This is a hobby and as any other hobby there is no need of it.

@OP, Sovkiller has it right. This is an audio forum and we get to discuss what matters to us even if it holds no interest to any one else, and we get to say that it matters because, here, it very much does.

Oh, and where did you read that the 555s would sound so much better with an amp? How much research did you put into that? If you'd asked the question of whether you should get an amp and/or which one for the 555s, I'm betting that you would have received more than a few friendly responses (warnings) that they might benefit slightly if at all. If someone told you that they needed an amp, did you question why or look to see who might be giving you that advice and question their level of experience? Did you look at the source side of things? What you're amping? Most people end up disappointed when they want something (a headphone, amp, etc) and then believe the first few posts they read that excite their interest rather than digging around for more accurate information. Disappointment is regularly the consequence of lack of research both into the gear and into who is advising you about it. No one I know personally would have told you an amp would offer anything but minor improvements with the 555s. Most would have told you not to bother with an amp. Most would have told you to get better headphones if you wanted better sound rather than amping the 555s.

As far as which headphones don't require an amp? Nearly all (but not all) earbuds, iems, and headphones that were designed to be used with a portable player. They may sound better or different with an amp, depending on the player, headphone and amp, but they were designed to reach their potential without one. Most (but not all) "audiophile" (not gaming, not multipurpose, not consumer level) headphones need an amp to reach their potential as they were designed for use in dedicated audio systems.

 

[Computerstud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif I own all four, and your statement is simply not true. The difference between a Heed Canamp and a Singlepower Extreme with PSU is just as dramatic as the difference between an ipod and the headphone out of an ibook, perhaps moreso, depending on the headphone. What kind of point are you trying to make by playing a guessing game that only announces that you don't know what you're talking about? You criticize members you've decided make exaggerated claims, and they certainly exist, but who are you to decide what's an exaggeration and who is making inaccurate claims when you don't have the knowledge to make such judgments? Why are you grandstanding? There will always be folks posting out their arse. It's the Internet. Often, those who make blanket claims and speak in superlatives are new to this hobby, lack experience with headphone gear, and are posting from enthusiasm and a deficiency in language skills. The benefit of a forum like this is that folks who have experience with a wide range of amps, headphones, and sources usually tame the hyperbole with common sense. Since your blanket conjecture about the benefits or lack thereof of amps and headphones you've never heard is as misguided as a newbie posting about how X is great without reference points, how are you serving the community? Equally harmful, equally wrong, negative-image bullhooey. @OP, Sovkiller has it right. This is an audio forum and we get to discuss what matters to us even if it holds no interest to any one else, and we get to say that it matters because, here, it very much does. Oh, and where did you read that the 555s would sound so much better with an amp? How much research did you put into that? If you'd asked the question of whether you should get an amp and/or which one for the 555s, I'm betting that you would have received more than a few friendly responses (warnings) that they might benefit slightly if at all. If someone told you that they needed an amp, did you question why or look to see who might be giving you that advice and question their level of experience? Did you look at the source side of things? What you're amping? Most people end up disappointed when they want something (a headphone, amp, etc) and then believe the first few posts they read that excite their interest rather than digging around for more accurate information. Disappointment is regularly the consequence of lack of research both into the gear and into who is advising you about it. No one I know personally would have told you an amp would offer anything but minor improvements with the 555s. Most would have told you not to bother with an amp. Most would have told you to get better headphones if you wanted better sound rather than amping the 555s. As far as which headphones don't require an amp? Nearly all (but not all) earbuds, iems, and headphones that were designed to be used with a portable player. They may sound better or different with an amp, depending on the player, headphone and amp, but they were designed to reach their potential without one. Most (but not all) "audiophile" (not gaming, not multipurpose, not consumer level) headphones need an amp to reach their potential as they were designed for use in dedicated audio systems.

QFT...Holy mother of Jerusalem, the woman hits it Bullseye.

Get an AMP, a decent source, and a well acknowledge pair of HPs that respond well to Amping. If you still can't hear a difference then sit back and enjoy your music.

BTW listen to individual parts of the music and not just volume.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

I own all four, and your statement is simply not true. The difference between a Heed Canamp and a Singlepower Extreme with PSU is just as dramatic as the difference between an ipod and the headphone out of an ibook, perhaps moreso, depending on the headphone.

I'm not guessing. I am, however, talking about my iPod and my Senn 580s; I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. Maybe different iPods have different amp sections. Mine, a first generation Nano, will barely drive my 580s at all. It has to be cranked all the way open to reach decent listening levels. the HP out of my iBook reaches the same levels at less than half the volume. Is that the kind of difference you hear between your Canamp and Singlepower? Can the Canamp not physically handle the Senns? Are we talking about a huge gap in capability rather than a subjective gap in quality? If so, I apologize for the inaccuracy.

Quote:

Why are you grandstanding? There will always be folks posting out their arse. It's the Internet. Often, those who make blanket claims and speak in superlatives are new to this hobby, lack experience with headphone gear, and are posting from enthusiasm and a deficiency in language skills. The benefit of a forum like this is that folks who have experience with a wide range of amps, headphones, and sources usually tame the hyperbole with common sense.

I wasn't aware that I was grandstanding. I thought I was just making my point. Evidently not, as you missed it. It was that often, those who have experience with a variety of amps are not taming the hyperbole, but contributing to it by making statements like X phone cannot be driven properly without an amp, when some sources drive X phone as well as some amps.

Boomana, one does not have to listen to a broad variety of headphone amps or train their ear to hear what they have right there in front of them. This thread wasn't started by someone who made a blanket, uninformed statement, but by a guy with efficient phones, designed by the manufacturer to be run directly from sources, who listened to the conventional wisdom of Head-Fi, bought a portable amp, listened and tried to hear the difference, then upgraded to a home amp (and one with a pretty decent reputation), listened again, and still can't hear it. Is it grandstanding to point out that just maybe his source was pretty capable of driving his phones in the first place? Is it grandstanding to point out that it is just as uninformed to say a source and phone need an amp without knowing the source as it is to say that amps are unnecessary without knowing lots of amps? That kind of nonsense had a 14-year-old kid here doubting his own ears and contemplating selling his best phones yesterday. I think perhaps a little grandstandng in support of reason might be called for around here.

Back to the subject at hand, what we have in this particular thread, and a couple of others here lately are:

1) Those who have concluded that certain phones (even very efficient ones designed to run well without an amp, in one post, even iPod earbuds!) simply cannot reach their potential directly from a source. And more often than not, they've reached this conclusion without hearing the source in question or even asking what it is.

2) Those who have listened to their source, bought and listened to an amp or two, and have come here to relate their personal experience of not hearing much difference between source and amp or between the first amp and the upgrade.

I haven't heard all the sources and amps in question, so I can't really come to conclusions, but I know who is grandstanding. What I'm trying to do, effectively or otherwise, is present a reasoned, alternative POV to the herd mentality that runs rampant through here. That's what the experienced veterans of this board should be doing. They should be admitting that efficient phones from strong sources just might be indistinguishable from most amps to most people; they should be trying to calm the fanboys to keep them from wasting the time and money of those coming here in search of advice. But I can understand why they're not; it's neither rewarding nor fun. I think I'll stop now and just lurk for awhile. Maybe I'll just fall in line behind that cute little ewe. Baaaaaaa.

Tim

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....This thread wasn't started by someone who made a blanket, uninformed statement, but by a guy with efficient phones, designed by the manufacturer to be run directly from sources, who listened to the conventional wisdom of Head-Fi, bought a portable amp, listened and tried to hear the difference, then upgraded to a home amp (and one with a pretty decent reputation), listened again, and still can't hear it. Is it grandstanding to point out that just maybe his source was pretty capable of driving his phones in the first place? Is it grandstanding to point out that it is just as uninformed to say a source and phone need an amp without knowing the source as it is to say that amps are unnecessary without knowing lots of amps? That kind of nonsense had a 14-year-old kid here doubting his own ears and contemplating selling his best phones yesterday. I think perhaps a little grandstandng in support of reason might be called for around here.

The problem I have with the OP was that this experience led him make a statement about "Debunking an Amp Myth".
If he doubts his ears that is OK. Maybe he is right in this particular example (could very well be as far as I'm concerned), but that does in no way warrant a statement like the above.

 

[Dobro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClieOS /img/forum/go_quote.gif btw, how do we define 'significant' over 'marginally good' over 'barely audible' on a standard we all can agree with?

Good point. How big is big? How much bigger is huge? All these terms are pretty meaningless with out a point of reverance or a an agreed upon metric.

I prepose we use MJUs or Musical Jollies Units. An MJU would be defined by KSC75 - Ipod OEM or the difference between a KDc75 and Ipod OEM earbuds. Please people, don't take this too seriously.

And again this is a good point to keep in mind. These relative terms are very nebulous.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem I have with the OP was that this experience led him make a statement about "Debunking an Amp Myth". If he doubts his ears that is OK. Maybe he is right in this particular example (could very well be as far as I'm concerned), but that does in no way warrant a statement like the above.

I agree that is a leap, but I think it's a pretty understandable one given his experience. Wait a minute...I'm supposed to be lurking...

Tim

 

[wnmnkh]

Just to say I am very impressed by quality of posts you made, Dobro (it is second time that I've ever 'impressed' by internet forum posts for more than 8 years)

Back to the OP, You just had wrong information, wrong experiment, and thus reached wrong conclusion. I am pretty sure most of people here would tell you there is little benefit from an amp for HD555. I can put my super.fi into one of amps I have, and I would not notice any viable difference.

Try ones really hard to drive, and you will hear big difference.

 

[regal]

I think with headphones an amp is a requirement, but this is by default. Let me explain. The source (DAC/CDP) is extremely critical for headphones, and you can't drive headphones from a line out because the HP impedance is too low. In other words you need a high quality DAC or CDP with headphones and to use one you'll need an amp to prevent bass roll-off. There is even a famous car audio guy who will pay anyone $10,000 who can tell the difference between two level matched non-clipping amplifiers. No one has ever taken his money on the double blind test. But he does exclude tube amp, which says a lot.

When I first started using high end headphones I was tricked into using these opamp based amplifiers. These do more damage than good IMO. A discrete class A buffer like the Jisbos is a 100x better than these cmoy's for lowish ohm HP's, and a proper tube amp is needed for higher ohm HP's.

 

[mnemonix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ciphercomplete /img/forum/go_quote.gif The 555s are not high impedance so maybe the unamped source you are using can power a 50 ohm pair of cans with no problem.

Another myth. Low impedance headphones are usually easier to drive louder (though it depends on sensitivity not just their impedance), but not necessarily easier to drive with authority. If anything quite the converse, and to do so they benefit from a completely different amplifier topology than high impedance phones, something often overlooked when people choose an amp for their cans and don't think to look beyond the obvious performance specifications.

 

[ukrneal]

I've got a question. Do all laptops have the same quality of amp driving them? If I took my HD### and connected to different computers (without an amp), would I notice a big difference? Are some internal amps better than others on laptops?

And how can I tell on my setup what kind of amp I have with the soundcard? That is, where can I look to see how much 'power' I actually have driving my headphones?

Or is the difference among laptops in the above so miniscule, that it doesn't bear mentioning?

 

[mnemonix]

The onboard sound from a laptop is dependent on many factors, the onboard DAC, the onboard amp and the quality of the laptop's design wrt noise and interference from the rest of the components. Again, as has been mentioned previously, quality does not equate with the power of the amp.

 

[adkimemory]

wow, sorry everyone~~~ I apologize for making this topic... I walked away for a day to study for my Organic Chem exam, and it just really blew up.




First, I felt that my post was very misleading, I apologize. I was not trying to debunk the idea that ALL headphones don't require any sort of amp. Many higher impedence headphones like the HD650 really need an amp in order to sound great and shine.
in fact I wanted it to be a topic that went both ways, "that doesn't really need an amp, but that really does."



What I was saying was that some headphones which the "wisdom of the forum" tells us would greatly benefit from an amp actually don't... not that much anyways. For example, many newcomers (such as me) who come here with a fist full of dollars wanting the best sounding thing they can get, who are very reluctant to buy an amp, are usually detered from getting great sounding LOW IMPEDENCE headphones like the HD595 because of all the people who say "you should get an amp," or "an amp will really let you hear its full potential."
In all honesty, it may be true, in fact you may be thinking you're helping them. The HD595 does benefit from an amp and sounds better. But what goes on in the buyers head is: "ugh, no amps; cross that off the list."
truth is, HD595 sounds great as is... probably better than most other headphones in that price range.



I'm sorry, I was not in anyway trying to say that amps in general are a myth. I'm just saying... "HEy guys, I know this is an audiophile forum and it's awesome that you guys are so passionate. But because you are the experts and so many average listeners who are in search of great Headphones look to you for guidance... can we perhaps make a topic in which we say: It's ok for you to buy that without an amp, or Don't buy that because you REALLY do need an amp for it?"

 

[mnemonix]

I believe someone else stated in another thread, this is Head-Fi not the Which Headphone Consumer Report.

You seem to be still under a misapprehension about low impedance headphones too, or would you suggest we recommend to a Sony R10 owner they don't need an amp either ?

If your headphones are dirt cheap then don't buy, or spend much on an amp, the money is better spent on better headphones first, beyond that I still don't see what one would say to anyone seeking advice that would satisfy you.