[Khanate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xFih2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm assuming its just amplifying an already not-so-good amplified sound that is coming out of a cheap headphone jack, which is why there isn't much of any improvement. Can anyone reassure me (or disprove) me of this? Also, somewhat going with that, will a dedicated DAC eliminate all the poor quality found in my laptop and make a huge difference (USB to Ultra Micro DAC to Ultra Micro Amp)? And how important is the power source for amp/dac? I'm assuming quite a bit for the K701s.

The amp in your laptop is ruining the sound before it can even enter the amp you bought. You are correct in assuming a DAC will improve greatly the performance of your setup. As far as k701s specifically... I would refer to boomana who has heard these headphones at least.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xFih2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a similar experience. For Christmas I started the audiophile journey with HD280 pros and an Total AirHead. I couldn't tell that much of a difference between using the AirHead from my laptop or just using it straight from my laptop. Then I got AKG K701s. Couldn't tell a huge difference between those and the HD280 pros at first, but as they burned it that changed. After hundreds of hours of burn in, I put on the HD280 pros and there was a huge difference. Now, I recently bought an Ultra Micro Amp. I could only tell a tiny difference from that and my AirHead, if any at all. After I put some hours on it, it changed a little bit, but still wasn't that big. Could it be that since it's going from the amp in my laptop (dell inspiron e1505) to the headphone jack to amp to headphones that there isn't much of any improvement? I'm assuming its just amplifying an already not-so-good amplified sound that is coming out of a cheap headphone jack, which is why there isn't much of any improvement. Can anyone reassure me (or disprove) me of this? Also, somewhat going with that, will a dedicated DAC eliminate all the poor quality found in my laptop and make a huge difference (USB to Ultra Micro DAC to Ultra Micro Amp)? And how important is the power source for amp/dac? I'm assuming quite a bit for the K701s. Sorry if this is a semi-threadjack, but I've had a similiar experience, and maybe it can give pointers to the OP (perhaps it's because your headphones don't benefit greatly with an amp, or maybe it's poor quality components before it gets to the amp, which maybe a better/dedicated DAC would solve). And also just to reassure you, you aren't alone in spending money and not hearing much (or no) improvement.

Yes a change in DAC should change the sound. But if you had a load (K701s) that was inadequately powered by the amp (your Total Airhead), you should be able to hear a difference when you power it adequately, with your Ultra Micro. It won't eliminate the noise from inside your computer or whatever coloration is added by your Dell's sound card, but it should still make a difference. Do you have a CD or DVD player? Remove the Dell from the chain. Plug the player into the the Airhead, then the ultra micro, and compare. Do it over days, not hours. Let us know what you hear. I'd love to know. That's one of the amps in my consideration set.

Tim

 

[boomana]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's one of the amps in my consideration set. Tim

Arrrrrrrgh! You said you wanted an amp for hard-to-drive headphones. The Ultra should not be on the consideration map. I'm a fan of HeadRoom products, but that amp won't do what you said you wanted unless your definition of hard-to-drive is way different than mine.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Why wouldn't someone seeking knowledge do a simple search, spend a few hours reading before putting good money down or throwing it away? There are excellent reviews stickied at the top of the gear forums. Those alone should answer more than half the questions here or allow members to form new, more valuable questions. Should Duggeh, for example (sorry Duggeh), post the same detailed information politely 200 times each year to elevate the board or 300 before he gets frustrated after a few years?

Because any search in Head-fi is not simple? I am pretty good with searching information myself (if I may say so), but Head-fi's search function really bring up more junk than goodies (like >90% of the time) and require a sharp eye (and mind) to filter most out before one can get what essentially are only 2~3 posts among hundred of threads. I can understand how this will frustrate newbie (or even oldbie) and in term they will repeatedly ask the already answered question and try to frustrate senior/more experience member (Duggeh?

) with their own frustration... the evil circle continues.

As a forum, HF is great for discussion but sucks on providing basic knowledge. HeadWize does a better jobs on that department.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adkimemory /img/forum/go_quote.gif For the past few months I've been here, I've read more than my share of topics in which people say "the **** is good, but amazing when amped" or "the **** sounds extraordinary, but will sound flat and uninspiring when unamped." Truth is, for the average user, there isn't a really big difference for these headphones at all... I know that the difference may be large for you devoted audiophiles that dissect each element of HP sound to attain perfection. But us average users who just want some toe tapping music can't really tell the difference sometimes. The problem with this is that because we're convinced that amps are a necessity for these great HP, we’re deterred from buying them and never experience what the audio world has to offer. So I’m making this topic in hopes to debunk some “amp myths,” essentially the idea that some Headphones always need amps to sound great. Yes it will always sound "better," but will it make a difference to the average listener? Please mention some headphones you believe don’t really require an amp at all to sound great for the average user. Lets set a standard (however subjective and imperfect it may be): I believe that if the headphone operates at 85% its potential, it doesn’t need an amp. 85% seems to be the threshold when a headphone difference ACtually MAtters to the average user. Here’s some: Sennheiser HD25-1 Sennheiser HD555 I also read from a topic, the HD580?? Which would include the HD600?? Feel free to debate~~~

Not a myth.. & the average listener is more then content with ear buds..

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOne.TR /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've cut and paste bit of the sections I thought stuck out to me. I agree that sometimes, the extent of difference may be stretched. That very same difference which may not 'mean anything to the average user' can just as easily mean 'as much as the price of the amp itself or more.' It's all subjective; to some it may be worth it, to others it may not. - Rednamalas1's comments (hm..i always read the name in my mind as 'red salamender' somehow) explain the situation pretty well and mirror my experiences. - I feel the advice that a certain headphone should not be used unless paired with a capable amp can very well be great advice and in no way a hinderance to experiencing the audio world. Let's setup the scenario where: I spend 100% of my budget on an incredibly hard to drive headphone, and just power it out of my sound card / portable audio player. There can very well be an assortment of issues wrong with the sound. Whereas if I were to take the exact same budget, and bought headphones that were say 50% of the budget. Assuming these headphones also aren't that easy to drive, I would then be able to spend the remaining 50% of the budget on something to properly drive the headphones and get better sound out of them. I've not really tried my headphones out of say my sound card/portable before when I have a perfectly fine amp around to use... so I did not name exact models, just in case naming a specific headphone would ruin my scenario setup. In such a case, it would be better for the user to get the cheaper headphone and be able to power it properly, than say the pricier one and be wondering "where's the bass impact? / where's the bass alltogether? / why can't this headphone even reach adequate listening volumes before clipping/distorting?". - I personally do not think the term "amp myth" is fitting, because for some headphones (not all headphones) the amp is pretty much needed. (needed in the sense to me, that the same money could be better spent pursuing a different setup). - I do not think this thread will get anywhere attempting to "debunk amp myths," however the idea of listing headphones that have the potential to sound quite good without needing an extra amp (extra since the sound card / DAP already has one, however weak/strong it may be) is a worthwhile effort. But this too has it's troubles, since the relative worth is subjective. I don't think a standard for the difference is really useful. There will be those who can't tell the difference, to them it won't matter. And even among those who can tell the difference, whether they care or not is a whole nother issue. To some maybe the headphone only performs at 60% of its potential without an amp, and they may be happy. To another, maybe the headphone only performs at 98% without an amp, but getting that last 2%, that tiny nuance of difference means all the world to them. I've read many reviews/threads here at head-fi, and I've seen many that have mentioned the differences to be subtle at best. I've read reviews where the Gilmore Lite w/DPS was said to have pretty much most of the performance of the GS-1. (Amp I know, but it's a fine example of users here mentioning the difference wasn't that big) I've also read other threads where headphones were recommended because they were easy to drive, but at the same time would benefit from an amp should the user choose to pursue that route down the line. Thus, to me, not only does the idea of an amp myth to 'debunk' seem ill-fitting, but also the 'amp myth' itself, after having read numerous threads from the wealth of threads here, seems a bit contrived. - To add to the list, from what I've read, the Audio Technica lineup around a500-700-900 seems to run quite well even out of an iPod. I myself thought the grado SR-60 was pretty good out of an iPod. The hd-497, my first sennheiser, was something I'd used for hours on end out of my computer/iPod/anything.

Yes, I'd pay an extra 300 to get a 5%-10% bump in SQ..

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, I'd pay an extra 300 to get a 5%-10% bump in SQ..

i would and have paid more. bottom line, you *can't* quantify better. if something undeniably sounds better, then cost to me is not really relevant. it makes no sense to start trying to figure out how much money the improvement is worth. is x amount of dollars worth y percentage increase. that's not a good argument.

if something is better, then it *is* worth the cost.

accordingly the only real question is whether it is feasible to purchase the thing, either through funds available to me now or in the future through saving or selling items or a combination of both. if so, then i will buy it. if not, then it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[lobehold]

Personally I feel that the source upgrade increase the amount of details, while amp increase the quality of said detail, so you won't necessarily notice the change when you switch between amped/unamped quickly.

From my own stint with dedicated amp, I would settle into the music for a while (lets say an hour), and if I take the amp out of the chain I can then feel something's missing in the music, and it doesn't sound so full.

Edit>>>

As for the point of the opening post, Head-Fi's full of people trying to squeeze the last bit of audio performance, and the difference amp makes is hardly small when compared to the thousands of dollars worth of interconnects.

Maybe there could be a newbie FAQ to headphones - setting proper expectations, explain diminishing return in money/SQ, and that description about sound quality is greatly exaggerated. But then again how could it not be exaggerated when audio is full of such nuances?

 

[Khanate]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes a change in DAC should change the sound. But if you had a load (K701s) that was inadequately powered by the amp (your Total Airhead), you should be able to hear a difference when you power it adequately, with your Ultra Micro. It won't eliminate the noise from inside your computer or whatever coloration is added by your Dell's sound card, but it should still make a difference. Do you have a CD or DVD player? Remove the Dell from the chain. Plug the player into the the Airhead, then the ultra micro, and compare. Do it over days, not hours. Let us know what you hear. I'd love to know. That's one of the amps in my consideration set. Tim

In his current setup the Total Airhead isn't the weak link.

Here is his current setup:
Laptop hard drive -> Internal DAC -> internal amp -> amp Total Airhead -> K701

The laptop hard drive is fine, the K701 is fine. The total airhead isn't perfect but in this setup the REALLY weak links are the internal dac and most importantly the internal amp.

Adding an external DAC will do this:

Laptop hard drive -> External DAC -> amp Total Airhead -> K701

Even if he was to buy only a better amp so they can "drive the k701s better" the amp itself needs to be properly driven, aka what comes in reflects what comes out and having a very badly amped signal as input just won't cut it.

You have many option depending on your budget.

No budget: stay as is
Low budget: Add an external DAC
High budget: Buy a better amp and a good DAC

Between low and high is subjective, you either have the choice of buying a good DAC and think ahead "oh my, when I get more money I'll buy a better amp and have a good setup finally!" or you can... anything else...

 

[xFih2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes a change in DAC should change the sound. But if you had a load (K701s) that was inadequately powered by the amp (your Total Airhead), you should be able to hear a difference when you power it adequately, with your Ultra Micro. It won't eliminate the noise from inside your computer or whatever coloration is added by your Dell's sound card, but it should still make a difference. Do you have a CD or DVD player? Remove the Dell from the chain. Plug the player into the the Airhead, then the ultra micro, and compare. Do it over days, not hours. Let us know what you hear. I'd love to know. That's one of the amps in my consideration set. Tim

I actually sent my Ultra Micro back in today because the 30 day return policy was almost up, and I want to be absolutely sure I get what I want before I throw down $1500-2000 dollars. I just hooked my Total AirHead back up, and must say I miss my Ultra Micro more than I thought. The SQ actually increased more than I thought it previously had (I was also using an Astrodyne power supply with it), but still wasn't as much as I was looking for. I made a new thread in the amp forum wondering what I should purchase now. If you're looking for a nice little portable amp and aren't using it from a digital source, I'd say go for it. AFAIK, it's one of the best for it's size.

 

[alphaproject]

This arguement is about as pointless as Mark Levinson vs NAD vs Crown PA amps that can power 1000 watts.....

Which sounds better?

I'm sure it's all subjective.

Run the same set of speakers thru the NAD/Crown/Mark Levinson......see what happens all at the same volume.

You kow those Yamaha NS-10's in studios. Personally, even though they were a staple....I think they sounded like crap.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Arrrrrrrgh! You said you wanted an amp for hard-to-drive headphones. The Ultra should not be on the consideration map. I'm a fan of HeadRoom products, but that amp won't do what you said you wanted unless your definition of hard-to-drive is way different than mine.

I define hard to drive by my current ownership of HD580s and my future interest in Beyers and AKGs. Though I'm not sure what that means, because Senn lists no sensitivity spec on their web site, and there doesn't seem to be a logical relationship between load (ohms) and power (watts@Xohms) in the headphone world, or at least not one I can suss out. Headroom lists no power output spec for the ultra micro at all. They show photos of the Ultra Micro with HD650s and K701s and define its application as "Audiophile: Headphone as reference." They offer a power supply upgrade. If it is not an appropriate amp for demanding reference headphones, their marketing is a bit deceptive, and devoid of any useful specifications. Are you sure we're not confusing it with the micro portable? The above lack of useful information, if I haven't already mentioned it, is not unusual or exclusive to Headroom. HeadAmp does list a power spec: 1 watt. Of course 1 watt, by itself, is absolutely meaningless in a world full of transducers that range from 30 to 600 ohms of resistance...

Arrrrrrgh! indeed.

Tim

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

Tell me which headphones you're interested in using, and I'll make it my personal tfarney CanJam mission to find you the best options since there will be more amps there than those I currently know.

I'm interested in getting the most out of my HD580s and, at some point, adding an alternative with a brighter signature - currently thinking in the neighborhood of Beyer 880 and AKG 601/701.

I'm not interested in a particularly colored amp, as I don't want to play the synergy game. I want source and amp components that are pretty neutral. If that doesn't make the headphones sound good, I'll assume the headphones don't sound good.

I don't need an amp that is "smooth" or "musical." Music is musical. Speakers can be smooth, or warm or bright. An amplifier is a window between them. This is not a dogma anyone else should adhere to, but it is my approach to audio equipment, and it works for me.

Quote:

And don't go away. You'd be missed. I think you offer a reflective perspective that's needed around here.

Thanks. Thing is, I'm really not much of an audiophile. I like to have stuff that sounds good, and I've owned some fairly high-end gear, but I've been known to keep pieces and use them daily for decades. Places like this are really for people on the acquisition/upgrade path. People who love the equipment almost as much as the music that is played on it. Once I've put my system together and I am content, there won't be much to talk about here unless it turns into a music forum.

Tim

PS: It takes so much more than this to actually piss me off...

 

[LostOne.TR]

Anyways, this thread now has quite a few nice viewpoints (agreeing/dissenting opinions) which I think is good for discussion. With many of the things mentioned here, there's just too much specifics/details/ and other variables for any one post to easily cover everything. (What holds true for one headphone, may not for another. For one person may not for antoher, etc...) I think from the information posted here, any user with more questions should be able to have seen a general path on which to research about/inquire about- and I encourage them, whether through the advanced search options built into head-fi or through the google search by adding "site:head-fi.org" to the end of your search query, to look for more information. Keep in mind though, in the end, the best for you can only be determined by you, yourself.

 

[whee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif The K701s do not respond well with portable amps, even good ones like the HeadRoom Ultra you own. You've chosen two good products, but they aren't suited for each other at all. If you want to improve the K701s, you need to move on over to the amp forum and look at dedicated home amps. Fortunately, there are a few budget amps that play quite nice with the 701s. If you want to see what your amp can do, investigate headphones that aren't as difficult to drive. Either way, do need to do some research, and you'll find what you've been missing. Oh, if you want to go hog wild on the 701s, a nice recable also helps, though it should be the last concern. Arrrrrrrgh! You said you wanted an amp for hard-to-drive headphones. The Ultra should not be on the consideration map. I'm a fan of HeadRoom products, but that amp won't do what you said you wanted unless your definition of hard-to-drive is way different than mine.

I'm not sure I understand. the ultra is a dedicated home amp shrunk into a micro form factor. it uses headroom's max module. it runs off a dedicated power supply only (wallwart or upgraded astrodyne). its got nothing to do with a portable amp and its definitely got enough juice to drive any headphone, especially k701s. I don't see how the ultra is in any way a "portable" amp.

the ultra micro
the standard micro
the portable micro