[music_4321]

 
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final audio? gah that one costs like arm and leg...

More like both arms & legs, at least for the FI-BA-SS!

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I know I'm about to open a can of worms, but could you elaborate on why a BA can't sound as airy as a vented dynamic, such as the JVC? According to the glossary, airiness is a phone's ability to reproduce high-frequency reflections and to extend in the 15-20kHz range. Wouldn't "trapping the sound inside the housing" actually improve airiness? BAs are also known to handle speed and treble better than dynamics. Provided that the reflection of higher frequencies does not create interference inside the enclosure, I don't see why BAs couldn't perform as well, if not better, than dynamics, in this regard...

 
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Well, by airiness I don't mean frequencies above 15 kHz. I mean the feeling that you get as though the sound interacts with the world around you. BAs can provide that effect too sure, but with open back dynamics, you can actually feel the air being pumped into the world around you from the drivers through the vents. That's a very different feeling. With vented BAs, you may get that feeling too, but it won't be as apparent as with open back dynamics that have much larger vents for the sound to get through.

 
Two definitions of airy:
 
"Airy: Spacious. Open. Instruments sound like they are surrounded by a large reflective space full of air. Good reproduction of high frequency reflections. High frequency response extends to 15 or 20 kHz."
 
"Airy: Pertaining to treble which sounds light, delicate, open, and seemingly unrestricted in upper extension. A quality of reproducing systems having very smooth and very extended HF response."
 
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I think that's why some people swear by earbuds and refuse to use any IEM's.
 
I'm not just talking about the Yuin and 9wave and Final Audio and Sony and Aiwa and TDK but even the Apple earbud has very loyal followers that have tried IEM's and BA's and gone back to their Apple earbuds.

 
I think - and I've said this before - that Apple earbuds are quite underrated. Yes, I am serious. I think there's too much snobbery and misinformation when it comes to good SQ. People often get carried away either by favouring well-known brands or the exact opposite, favouring the most obscure brands. Add to that the fact people on HF often spend a lot of money on IEMs/headphones and chances are you'll try to justify your purchase by always saying that iBuds/lower-priced phones "suck". Well, I don't think Apple earbuds "suck" but, unfortunately, I personally could never get a good fit with them unless I pushed them right against my ears, in which case they were very decent sounding.
 
That said, I think the Sony EX600 is an oncredibly good sounding phone, and it's $125-$150 (in the USA), but the EX1000 remains the best phone I've heard to date.
 
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Hard to say.  All of my AB takes place using the first chain in my sig.  Same source, songs, etc.  I don't really use my other gear for AB since it's just not up to par w/ my current chain but only for specific functions or listening goals.  Most of my listening for the past few months has been for testing and ABing gear rather than just being able to enjoy casual content.  Thankfully my SQ playlist has 121 songs on it.  That number either grows or shrinks depending.  =P 
 
Definitely looking forward to James chiming in once he gets the UERM.  He'll have all three at the same time hopefully and will offer a fantastically detailed review I'm sure.  When that happens, perhaps add this to the title.  UERM, FAD-SS, EX1000:  A case study.
 

James has been 'deprived' of his EX1000s for 4 months and I seriously wonder if he'll have them back by Xmas!  
 
On a side note, I haven't come across a head-fier as generous - in the very true sense of word - as james444. Also, not only has he got a very good pair of ears, IMO, but he's one of the very, VERY few HF'ers who will tell it like it is, ie he won't easily be swayed one way or another either by technology used, country of origin/manufacture, price or brand. James444 really is an asset to the community and to the ordinary consumer. Yes, often people are friendly (and manufacturers, too) but there's often, in my view, a reason behind such friendliness which I'm not willing to discuss either here or privately. With manufactures' friendliness it's easier to see where that friendliness comes from, ie they want your business. With head-fiers/ordinary people it's a little more complex than that.
 
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Are you the sparrow that sits on Odin's shoulder and flies away to collect information?
 

Nice painting.
 
This sparrow, BTW, in this day and age, doesn't have to fly that far to collect information. That said, the sound of birds is...well...'special'. The origin of music and the effect it has on plants, animals & people remains a mystery to me (yes, I know there are plenty of studies that deal with some of these issues, and some of this research is fascinating).
 
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Originally Posted by a_recording /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I'm sure as music_4321's comment is implying, this is going to be an epic an eternal struggle on these forums, but meanwhile in the actual market there are crazy engineering teams trying to push both armatures and dynamics to sound closer and closer, if it means growing dynamic drivers out of unobtanium or spoiling the whole party by perfecting the moving armature driver.
 

Yes, I was implying that, but also something rather more simple: that there are other threads that have dealt with these issues and perhaps it'd have been a good idea to continue where some of them left off rather than start a whole new thread.
 
-------------------
 
My view on the 'debate' is that some DD IEMs offer a level of coherence - a seamless (yes, wonderfully seamless) blending of all frequencies - I haven't heard from any of the BA IEMs I've heard, including my truly excellent & beloved ES3X (and previously the W4s). That and the overall more natural reproduction of instruments and vocals & a sense of natural/more convincing space (making them sound more life-like).
 
I think terms such as speed, decay, resolution, micro-details, timbre, instrument separation, extension and soundstage are often misused, abused and often simply 'regurgitated'.
 

 

[kiteki]

That was a very good post music_4321

 

[noxa]

i think you prefer what you first heard, i started with dynamics and have never been able to get on with ba since, i know alot of people who see it the other way.
as a really general guide i see it as.
Dynamic = lows, soundstage, naturalness
BA = highs, mids
i think hybrids will eventually conquer all.

 

[kiteki]

To be honest, if electrostatic speakers were the low-end commonplace everyday speaker all over the place, and dynamic speakers were the high-end audiophile products, I think people would love them to death.

 

[dogears]

In the end, it will still boil down to preference and how much one is willing to pay
Sold my DBA after hearing MDR7550 which in turn ended up in the FS section after hearing the K2.

 

[Anaxilus]

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In the end, it will still boil down to preference and how much one is willing to pay
Sold my DBA after hearing MDR7550 which in turn ended up in the FS section after hearing the K2.

See, there is no 'right' technology.  Only 'right' sound (for your ears).  To address an earlier post BA's are actually older (1919) and more antiquated than dynamics.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphones

 

[shamrock134]

So when will this discussion move on to bass?
 
Some people don't think there is a difference, others (like me) feel like there is something a bit iffy about BA bass reproduction. I can only compare with the few BAs and DDs I have, but there is something about the bass of DDs that is more satisfying somehow.
 
Hybrids like the UM Merlin could be the way forward!

 

[3602]

Holy shark four pages already? Sharks!!
 
Some say that the SE535 has bass sounding like "knocking on corrugated iron".

 

[BattleBrat]

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See, there is no 'right' technology.  Only 'right' sound (for your ears).  To address an earlier post BA's are actually older (1919) and more antiquated than dynamics.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headphones

VERY enlightening! dunno why I haven't read that before...
I'm a DD man myself, but I have a soft spot for electrostatics....
 
 

 

[mark2410]

BA, they got more right, more often and more easily.
 
 
however they really dont ever get the very top end treble right.  its not really about the technology used its all about how its employed.

 

[dogears]

There is (bass diff) but then again it could be the tuning. The MDR7550 is hard hitting and deep while the K2 sounds fuller [edit start] so it would depend on what music I want to listen to - [edit ends] then I'd prefer one over the other. Metallica sounded fantastic on MDR7550 while I'd rather use K2 for AIC Unplugged.
 
Now if Stax can only make a smaller version of Baby Stax and make it available for cIEMS

I can dream right?

For me, the Baby Stax leaves the K2 and MDR7550 bass behind, tactile is the best adjective I can think of when hearing Baby Stax bass \m/
 
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So when will this discussion move on to bass?
 
Some people don't think there is a difference, others (like me) feel like there is something a bit iffy about BA bass reproduction. I can only compare with the few BAs and DDs I have, but there is something about the bass of DDs that is more satisfying somehow.
 
Hybrids like the UM Merlin could be the way forward!

 

 

[james444]

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Thumbs down.  The FAD SS is more resolving overall than the EX1000.  It's the closest I've heard to the levels of my customs surpassing the EX1000.  The EX1000 is more 'pleasing' overall to listen to and doesn't miss out on much.  Once I compensate for a few of it's idiosyncrasies for my personal use

 
Agreed, the EX1000 don't miss out much in comparison, but their holistic presentation makes them less suited for analytical listening.
 
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Definitely looking forward to James chiming in once he gets the UERM.  He'll have all three at the same time hopefully and will offer a fantastically detailed review I'm sure.  When that happens, perhaps add this to the title.  UERM, FAD-SS, EX1000:  A case study.

I'm not sure I'll have the EX1000 back by then, but the FAD-SS and either these or the W4 will do. Plus I'll get the UERM demos again for an actual A/B between demos and final product.
 
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I think when you go higher up in the quality of multi-crossover BA's and better designed dynamic drivers, it becomes more of a toss-up between the two and the type of sound they produce. When you're at the ultra high-end of both transducer designs, I think they are both very competent. I haven't heard the Sony EX1000, but I can imagine how good it is as I've owned the Sennheiser IE8 before and they were extraordinarily resolving and detailed, with serious bass power. And then I got the SM3 and realized that BA's can be even better than what I imagined them to ever be. Eventually I got the JH16 and boy did they make me change my perspective on BA's (I respected the balanced armature design much more after having bought customs, realizing how much better sounding they can be).
 
I think a single BA is not as good sounding as a single dynamic driver most of the time (this can be untrue if the BA is tuned very well). Multi-driver BA's tend to sound more detailed than most dynamics in their price range, but still lack the bass depth and punch of most dynamics (as well as nailing timbre right). When you reach 4+ driver-BA's on complex triple crossovers (Westone ES5, JH13/JH16, etc.) then the BA's truly begin performing at their maximum potential in my opinion--even then, there are dynamic-driver IEMs from manufacturers like Final Audio Design that stand their ground against these X-driver customs.
 
Either way, both transducer technologies have their benefits and disadvantages. However, both sound pretty darn good when you get your hands on a well-designed in-ear monitor incorporating either transducer.

 
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Thanks for your review, Solid Victory Japanese flag person.

x2, great post.
 
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I always explain it by wiggling my finger around and telling them its an armature.

Nominated for the funniest post in this thread so far.
 
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On a side note, I haven't come across a head-fier ...

Thanks for your kind words, I'm not even able to quote that post without turning red with embarassment.

 

Well, to add something to the OT, in my case it's the insight that nothing is set in stone in the world of IEMs and a lot depends on your personal experience with the phones you've heard.
 
For example, I've been known as a long standing advocate for DDs and single driver BAs, because the multi driver BAs I had heard had issues with timbre (to my ears). Then one day I got the W4 and had to acknowledge, that with the right selection/implementation of drivers and crossovers, multi driver BAs can have pretty impressive timbre too. Or another example, when I first heard the moving armature based Ortofon e-Q7 in November 2009, I was so impressed by this new technology, that I thought it would take the IEM world by storm. Fast forward one year and sadly the new e-Q5 and GR10 models showed virtually no further technical improvement over the e-Q7.
 
Overall I agree that each transducer technologies have their pluses and minuses and that design and implementation are what matters the most. So here's my message to less experienced HeadFiers, don't fall for fanboys of either camp and keep your ears and mind open.

 

[music_4321]

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Thanks for your kind words, I'm not even able to quote that post without turning red with embarassment.

That was the whole idea.  
 

 

[kiteki]

 
I'm still waiting for an IEM that has a dynamic driver for the bass and an armature for the highs, how hard can it be?

 

[kiteki]

 
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Some say that the SE535 has bass sounding like "knocking on corrugated iron".

That kinda reminds me of the chinese review that said the CK10 is like "dragging a nail on a window on a cold winter morning"