[CanadianMaestro]

I think the advantage of diff amps, is that they don't pass on the noise to components downstream. Right?

 

[MRC001]

  Quite sure it's 3db with the balanced out over single ended...6dBs total if one is also using a balanced source...the difference between the hi and low gain switch is 6dbs......if I'm not mistaken.

I was referring to the 6 dB drop you get in theory, by cutting the voltage amplitude in half, which is what happens if you simply ignore the - side and take + to ground.
It's not always converted that way, so actual amount may vary.

 

[Rob80b]

  I think the advantage of diff amps, is that they don't pass on the noise to components downstream. Right?

Correct, for example the input of the BHA-1 is fully balanced but initially I ran single ended interconnects from my Bryston BCD-1 at the front of the living room to the BHA-1 behind the sofa which requires 35' of cable to follow the room boundaries  and had lots of noise and hum and very annoying with headphones

, but once I got them hooked up with balanced interconnects no noise, hum what so ever.... dead quiet.

 

 

[Rob80b]

And getting back to wither or not balanced headphone cables make a difference at least with the Bryston BHA-1, I spent the afternoon listening to Dead Can Dance’s “Spirit Chaser” with has lots going on in terms of the soundstage, great base etc but switching between single ended and balanced with the LCD-2.2s and once levels  were matched I could not perceive, try as I might, any perceived differences at all.
I’ll give it more long term listening but I did the same awhile back with my AKG K701s,  Senn HD580/600s and my current HD700s and the results were the same, so much for my theory if whether or not planar magnetics would react differently.

 

 

[CanadianMaestro]

That's unsettling. If the noise floor is lowered in balanced, one should hear more in the recording vs. vol-matched SE.
Get a live choral recording, like Mozart's Requiem, that has voices way at the back of the choir, and also lots of vocal inflections of the front-row soloists. Then get back to me.
 
(this stuff should be in the BHA-1 thread...there are many other amps suited for the LCD-2 also here....)

 

[Rob80b]

  That's unsettling. If the noise floor is lowered in balanced, one should hear more in the recording vs. vol-matched SE.
 

Again....there is no reduced noise with the balanced headphone cable, the volume control attenuates the output to the phones but not the amps actual power to achieve the same volume level between the single and balanced headphone output, not to be confused with with increasing or lowering volume to increase/decrease loudness with the same connection.
Matching volume between different phones is another matter as efficiency and current draw will vary.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

  Again....there is no reduced noise with the balanced headphone cable, the volume control attenuates the output to the phones but not the amps actual power to achieve the same volume level between the single and balanced headphone output.
Matching volume between different phones is another matter as efficiency and current draw will vary.

OK I got it, brain cramp on my part.
 
So....no benefit with BHA-1 balanced out?? Is that the message? Even if I ran bal out from my BDA-1 fed by AES from BDP-1? That's what I do, and I hear better imaging.

 

[Rob80b]

 
OK I got it, brain cramp on my part.
 

Either way the BHA-1 is specked at >103 dBv (with 20 Hz to 22 kHz band pass filter) so very quiet and is pretty evident with the Audeze producing a very black background, as I'm sure you know.

 

 

[Rob80b]

  .........
 
So....no benefit with BHA-1 balanced out?? ......
 

Only from the balanced "pre-outs" but do not use those to power your headphones. Using balanced between components is another matter...and I always use balanced when available.

 

[MRC001]

That's unsettling. If the noise floor is lowered in balanced, one should hear more in the recording vs. vol-matched SE.

Rob 80b gave a good answer. But even if the noise floor was lower, you won't hear any difference in the recording unless the prior noise floor was high enough to be audible (directly or indirectly). That won't happen with any well built solid state amp.

 

[BassDigger]

  There are different motivations in high end audio. Someone might get the most expensive stuff he can afford because he likes heavy nice looking gear or wants to impress his friends. But let's assume a different person who wants to get the best sound for a given dollar amount. For example for $2500 he can get an LCD2F with a $1500 amp, or an LCD3F with a $500 amp. Which will be better?
 
It is possible to build a solid state amp, using top quality components where it matters (in the signal path, I'm not talking about giant fancy volume knobs), of good design, with all forms of distortion below human audible thresholds, when driving any normal headphone, like an LCD3F, which is an easy load to drive. And produce it for well under $1000.
 
That doesn't mean it will sound the same as any other well designed and built amp. It does mean the differences will be subtle, and it also means whatever differences exist, are not necessarily "better" or "worse", just different. However, because of expectations in sighted listening, people tend to attach preferences to differences they hear aligned with price.
 
Consider for example the Meier Jazz vs the Bryston BHA-1. Differences will be subtle because both are very close to "the absolute sound". But let's assume a discerning listener could reliably tell them apart in a DBT. Knowing the BHA costs 4 times the Jazz ($1400 vs. $350), he would tend to assume the differences are in favor of the BHA. Yet without this knowledge - not knowing which was the Jazz or the BHA - preferences evaporate or split 50/50.
 
Key point: hearing a difference is different from having a preference. Just cuz they sound different doesn't mean you like one over the other. And just cuz you prefer one to the other doesn't mean you can tell them apart in a double blind test.
 
This is not mere supposition. Tests like this have been done many times and the results are consistent.
 
I don't mean to pick on these 2 particular amps - just examples meeting the requirement of "past a certain point". Both of these amps are well designed and built, using top quality components with measurable distortion below human audible limits when driving any normal headphone load like the LCD-3F.

  There is the law of diminishing returns.
 
A $2000 HP/amp is never twice better than a $1000 one.
 
The higher you go, the less the effective sonic return on your money.
 

 
Guys, you're preaching to the converted; I am more than aware of diminishing returns, placebo effects and expectation bias!
My lcd2's are my most expensive single hifi related purchase, only 'cos I didn't know of any kit headphones that would be as good. All my other gear is either S/H, clone, kit or modified vintage.
 
Let's keep this in context; I was responding to a question about an amp for the $2000ish lcd3, from someone who didn't seem to know much about anything. I think that it was fair to suggest that spending some cash was going to be her easiest option; after all, her 'phones weren't cheap; if she could afford those, then why not the amp? And remember, these 'phones are good; they're about equivalent to a $3-5000+ pair of speakers, maybe more!
 
Regarding what a 'good' amp should cost: I guess it will be about $100 in parts. So by your reasoning, it appears that the finished product wouldn't cost much more to buy. Of course, we know that this is not the case. Although, perhaps I am in some agreement, when it comes to headphone amps, I think that to suggest that anything (or everything) above a certain price point is pretty much the same, is ultimately a little ignorant and naive. (Just look at the other discussion(s) taking place here.) The vast difference in headphone loads really does mean that different amps (technologies) work best for different 'phones. Some of those are surely more expensive to implement.
Anyway, that's why I'm here; to learn about which equipment is more substance than lustre.
 
One last point: I think that relying on measurements and theory is also a little naive; theory is just that, and measurements have yet to tell the whole story. Unfortunately, we've just got to trust ourselves, and our own hearing, to decide what really is getting us the best sound per pound. But a little help, from some like-minded people, is always appreciated!

 

[MRC001]

... when it comes to headphone amps, I think that to suggest that anything (or everything) above a certain price point is pretty much the same, is ultimately a little ignorant and naive. (
...
One last point: I think that relying on measurements and theory is also a little naive; theory is just that, and measurements have yet to tell the whole story.

I generally agree. If anyone said everything above a certain price point sounds the same, or that measurements tell the whole story, I missed it.

When you say 'trust our ears' I would add 'trust but verify'. We must have the humility to acknowledge perceptions can be distorted by appearances, prices, expectations. We should trust our ears yet also apply knowledge and common sense to protect against that.

 

[Vosegus]

my 300$ NFB15 power LCD2F like nothing and they sound amazing.
The only upgrade I might consider in the future is a powerfull tube amp. I honestly don't see a reason to shell out so much money on a solid state amp.

 

[BassDigger]

my 300$ NFB15 power LCD2F like nothing and they sound amazing.
The only upgrade I might consider in the future is a powerfull tube amp. I honestly don't see a reason to shell out so much money on a solid state amp.

I spent the equivalent of about $250usd, on an amp for my lcd2f. It sounds great. But I know that they can sound better; like you, I fancy trying a potent tube amp.

I think that it's just about trying to find that 'sweet spot', where you can be confident that you're getting enough out of your phones, and you know that your phones are the right ones. All within your budget, of course!

 

[Rob80b]

  Rob 80b gave a good answer. But even if the noise floor was lower, you won't hear any difference in the recording unless the prior noise floor was high enough to be audible (directly or indirectly). That won't happen with any well built solid state amp.

Not only that, most of us do not have a noise free environment...here in TO we often get the odd power blackout, it's amazing the eerie silence that pursues…but then we have no power to run our rigs.