[MRC001]

  I can't really see why LCD3s necessarily "need" a +1000 dollar amp - aren't there many amps with very good specs for less money? Educate me too

+1 exactly.
Any well designed, well built solid state amp with high quality parts can drive the LCD3 to their full potential.
Such amps don't have to cost a kilobuck - the Meier Corda Jazz is one example, there are several others.
 
Proviso 1: they don't all necessarily sound the same, though they will be very similar and differences will be subtle.
 
Proviso 2: beyond a certain point - among well designed, well built amps with high quality parts - the price has little relationship to the quality of build or sound.

 

[BassDigger]

 
... to get the best out of the lcd3. But I'd suggest that you'll need to spend at least $1000, on an amp, to do justice to them.

 

  I can't really see why LCD3s necessarily "need" a +1000 dollar amp - aren't there many amps with very good specs for less money? Educate me too

 

+1 exactly.
Any well designed, well built solid state amp with high quality parts can drive the LCD3 to their full potential.
Such amps don't have to cost a kilobuck - the Meier Corda Jazz is one example, there are several others.
 
Proviso 1: they don't all necessarily sound the same, though they will be very similar and differences will be subtle.
 
Proviso 2: beyond a certain point - among well designed, well built amps with high quality parts - the price has little relationship to the quality of build or sound.

 
The lcd3 is a good $2000usd headphone. Getting a good amp to get the most out of them, makes sense, to me.
If someone buys a good (and expensive) pair of headphones, why would they want to get a cheap amp? They might as well, just get cheaper headphones, and have more cash leftover, maybe to get a more synergistic amp.
 
I'm not saying that you HAVE to spend $1000+ bucks, but that's probably the easiest solution for someone who's already splashed $2000usd on their headphones, and apparently has little understanding of audio equipment.
 
If you're going to buy your amp, just based on the spec sheets, or what wattage should be enough to get 'X' volume level, with 'X' sensitivity headphone.....well, good luck with that!
 
Beyond what price point is it that the price has little effect on SQ? Please let me know; it'll save me a lot of time and money!
 
P.S. Doris's original post seems to have disappeared; was it something I said? 

 

 

[CanadianMaestro]

  With my setup the Bryston BHA-1 and LCD-2.2s have so far displayed a nice synergy, I’m running them balanced which may or may not make a huge difference, I‘ll try them once more unbalanced once their signature is properly etched into my memory

…  but what I can say so far is that I’m surprised by the amount of  stage width and depth which is contrary from I’ve read…so a nice surprise…not too different from my HD700s..but richer and fuller..

I will say it (again)...BHA-1 bal made a substantial improvement for my LCD-2.2 in my system. Period.   I'm never hesitant to express my experiences firmly, regardless of whether I know the scientific basis for the sound profile. 

 

[Rob80b]

  P.S. Doris's original post seems to have disappeared; was it something I said? 

Yep..all of 3 doriton's post have gone.

..maybe something I said.

 

[Rob80b]

  I will say it (again)...BHA-1 bal made a substantial improvement for my LCD-2.2 in my system. Period.   ..........

I won’t dismiss the fact, even an old dog can sometimes learn new tricks

, but it is quite possible that planar magnetic drivers do indeed benefit more by having their left and right drivers fed a discrete +& - signal with no common ground...plus there's the added 3dB gain.
But like I said I’ll will try the unbalanced connection, try and match the gain and see if indeed there is a noticeable difference and report back.

 

 

[MRC001]

  If someone buys a good (and expensive) pair of headphones, why would they want to get a cheap amp? They might as well, just get cheaper headphones, and have more cash leftover, maybe to get a more synergistic amp.
 
I'm not saying that you HAVE to spend $1000+ bucks, but that's probably the easiest solution for someone who's already splashed $2000usd on their headphones, and apparently has little understanding of audio equipment.

There are different motivations in high end audio. Someone might get the most expensive stuff he can afford because he likes heavy nice looking gear or wants to impress his friends. But let's assume a different person who wants to get the best sound for a given dollar amount. For example for $2500 he can get an LCD2F with a $1500 amp, or an LCD3F with a $500 amp. Which will be better?
 
It is possible to build a solid state amp, using top quality components where it matters (in the signal path, I'm not talking about giant fancy volume knobs), of good design, with all forms of distortion below human audible thresholds, when driving any normal headphone, like an LCD3F, which is an easy load to drive. And produce it for well under $1000.
 
That doesn't mean it will sound the same as any other well designed and built amp. It does mean the differences will be subtle, and it also means whatever differences exist, are not necessarily "better" or "worse", just different. However, because of expectations in sighted listening, people tend to attach preferences to differences they hear aligned with price.
 
Consider for example the Meier Jazz vs the Bryston BHA-1. Differences will be subtle because both are very close to "the absolute sound". But let's assume a discerning listener could reliably tell them apart in a DBT. Knowing the BHA costs 4 times the Jazz ($1400 vs. $350), he would tend to assume the differences are in favor of the BHA. Yet without this knowledge - not knowing which was the Jazz or the BHA - preferences evaporate or split 50/50.

 
Key point: hearing a difference is different from having a preference. Just cuz they sound different doesn't mean you like one over the other. And just cuz you prefer one to the other doesn't mean you can tell them apart in a double blind test.
 
This is not mere supposition. Tests like this have been done many times and the results are consistent.
 
I don't mean to pick on these 2 particular amps - just examples meeting the requirement of "past a certain point". Both of these amps are well designed and built, using top quality components with measurable distortion below human audible limits when driving any normal headphone load like the LCD-3F.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

There is the law of diminishing returns.
 
A $2000 HP/amp is never twice better than a $1000 one.
 
The higher you go, the less the effective sonic return on your money.
 

 

[MRC001]

   it is quite possible that planar magnetic drivers do indeed benefit more by having their left and right drivers fed a discrete +& - signal with no common ground...plus there's the added 3dB gain.

 
Actually it's 6 dB (twice the voltage, 4x the power). I know of no law of physics that allows a planar driver to respond any differently from a discrete + / - signal versus a + signal at twice the amplitude against ground. Since there is no 3rd wire to give the headphone any sense of independent ground, electrically, they are indistinguishable. The difference in voltage between the 2 wires is exactly the same, and that's what any driver, planar magnetic or conventional, responds to. The only possible difference I can imagine is the higher noise floor of unbalanced or some form of noise being cancelled by the balanced that the unbalanced carries.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

Differential amps will have lower noise thru their balanced outputs. I think that's what may give the "better" oomph of a bal HP vs. a SE HP.

 

[MRC001]

  Differential amps will have lower noise thru their balanced outputs. I think that's what may give the "better" oomph of a bal HP vs. a SE HP.

Possibly. Yet an SE amp can have a noise floor below -100 dB. The noise is already below threshold of hearing with music at any normal listening level. What difference does it make if it's 6 dB quieter? Does it matter if the noise you couldn't hear in the first place, is even quieter?
 
Maybe it does, to some people. They like knowing their amp is super quiet. They couldn't hear the lower noise in a double blind test, they just like knowing it's lower.
 
Others might ask, why pay twice as much for an amp whose noise is even quieter than noise I can't hear in the first place? The extra kilobuck I save buys a lot of music I can listen to.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

If one lives in a noisy environment like a condo/high-rise, where dedicated power lines aren't possible....then noise floor might be critical for enjoying small-scale classical music on HPs.
 
cheers

 

[MRC001]

  If one lives in a noisy environment like a condo/high-rise, where dedicated power lines aren't possible....then noise floor might be critical for enjoying small-scale classical music on HPs.
 
cheers

I agree. But this would not differentiate SE from balanced. The power supply on a SE amp can have enough filtration to run on quite a noisy AC line without a hint of ripple passing into the signal. In both cases noise floor well below human audibility.
 
Don't take me wrong: balanced does have measurable advantages. But not necessarily audible advantages, compared with high quality SE amps in most normal audiophile applications. Most of the time, there's no practical drawback to well engineered and built SE.

 

[MRC001]

  There is the law of diminishing returns.
 
A $2000 HP/amp is never twice better than a $1000 one.
 
The higher you go, the less the effective sonic return on your money.

Agree. Yet this is the price curve, not the performance curve.
 
The performance curve is uncorrelated to price past a certain point. In some cases, paying more gives you inferior performance.
 
So a $2000 amp is not necessarily ANY better than a $1000 one. It might be better, it might indistinguishable, it might actually be worse. In many cases, it costs twice as much for no reason other than it's produced in smaller batches (which is inherently more expensive). Or it has a fancier box and knobs.

 

[Rob80b]

   
Actually it's 6 dB (twice the voltage, 4x the power). ....
 

Quite sure it's 3db with the balanced out over single ended...6dBs total if one is also using a balanced source...the difference between the hi and low gain switch is 6dbs......if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Rob80b]

  Differential amps will have lower noise thru their balanced outputs. I think that's what may give the "better" oomph of a bal HP vs. a SE HP.

The BHA-1 is basically two mono amps…not differential amps as used within components to cancel noise, balanced headphone cables offer no noise cancellation as there is between components with balanced connections. The only inherent advantage with a balanced headphone amp is in keeping the left and right channels discrete from one another, therefore reducing cross talk, there is no real increased gain but only perceived as such if the amp also offers a single ended output which will only use half of the amps output with a common ground to both channels.