[Assimilator702]

Yes, I used JVC Spiral Dots...see my review for the reported differences...which were huge.

Ok I’ll have to read that review. I’ve only read your initial impressions article. Right now the main thing is getting a seal and only the Sony Hybrids due to their soft texture and wider umbrella shape do it for me. I’ve resisted buying JVC Spiral Dots and Spinfits but it looks like I’ll be taking the plunge.

 

[Otto Motor]

Ok I’ll have to read that review again. Right now the main thing is getting a seal and only the Sony Hybrids due to their soft texture and wider umbrella shape do it for me. I’ve resisted buying JVC Spiral Dots and Spinfits but it looks like I’ll be taking the plunge.

I had resisted for three years but sometimes these overpriced ones fill a niche.

 

[Slater]

OK, I did not measure the impedances but the frequency responses of the Tiger vs. another 8-core cable (pure copper) using the same volume settings...which were 85 dB at 1 kHz for the Tiger. I then measured the other cable and the FR responses were identical. If the Tiger cable had an anomalous resistance/impedance, both graphs would be different in shape and the cable with the bigger resistance would produce a graph sitting below the other (recorded output signal would be weaker).

Well, that’s the age old cable debate.

Can a cable’s effect on perceived sound be measured? If so, how? By measuring FR? Impedance? Resistance? Frequency sweeps with an oscilloscope? Blind listening tests? Why do some people hear differences but others do not? Is it even quantitative, or is the effect only qualitative?

Tyll tried to get to the bottom of it (https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-cable-measurements-wrap), and so have others (https://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0).

If you can figure out what no one in history has been able to figure out yet, then you, sir, will win the Audiophile Nobel Prize.

Since this straying off topic, I don’t want to get in trouble. I would recommend moving further discussion to the sound science forum, since that’s what the Admins will tell us to do anytime the topic comes up anyways

 

[Otto Motor]

Well, that’s the age old cable debate.

Can a cable’s effect on perceived sound be measured? If so, how? By measuring FR? Impedance? Resistance? Frequency sweeps with an oscilloscope? Blind listening tests? Why do some people hear differences but others do not? Is it even quantitative, or is the effect only qualitative?

Tyll tried to get to the bottom of it (https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/headphone-cable-measurements-wrap), and so have others (https://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0).

If you can figure out what no one in history has been able to figure out yet, then you, sir, will win the Audiophile Nobel Prize.

Since this straying off topic, I don’t want to get in trouble. I would recommend moving further discussion to the sound science forum, since that’s what the Admins will tell us to do anytime the topic comes up anyways

Well, if the Tiger cable is broken it should sound off and if it has elevated resistance, it should be more difficult to drive than other cables. That's all I'd like to state. The discussion was not about fine sound quality details but about the fundamental question whether the Tiger cable works alright. And so far, all evidence points to the fact that it is ok.

I certainly don't buy $50 cables either.

Let's take a step back: Initially people replaced their fine-working stock copper cables with silver-plated ones. And now they replace the silver-plated ones with...yes...copper. Very circular!

 

[Assimilator702]

I had resisted for three years but sometimes these overpriced ones fill a niche.

I tried the wide bores that are included with TFZ iems and they will be what I use until I get my hands on some Spiral Dots. They don’t feel quite as secure as Sony Hybrids but I am getting a seal and the mids and treble sound better. I noticed energetic female vocals for example on Lady Gaga Fame Monster were a bit emphasized with the Hybrids. I actually think I was getting too much bass with the Hybrids. With the TFZ Wide bores the bass is still very present, deep and powerful but cut back a bit. Vocals sound more natural. Treble sounds a touch more laid back which is surprising but it’s possible the ultra narrow bores of the Sony Hybrids were boosting treble. I find certain tip/iem combos don’t always follow the rules of what is expected.

 

[Slater]

Well, if the Tiger cable is broken it should sound off and if it has elevated resistance, it should be more difficult to drive than other cables. That's all I'd like to state. The discussion was not about fine sound quality details but about the fundamental question whether the Tiger cable works alright. And so far, all evidence points to the fact that it is ok.

I certainly don't buy $50 cables either.

Let's take a step back: Initially people replaced their fine-working stock copper cables with silver-plated ones. And now they replace the silver-plated ones with...yes...copper. Very circular!

I look at it like this.

I go to a restaurant with my friend. I’m going to treat him to lunch. We each order an angus steak burger, and I’m paying for both burgers.

Here’s my friend’s steak burger:



Other than not having any trimmings, it looks good eh? Juicy, tasty, mmmm. Just what I would expect from a steak burger. It looks and tastes like a steak burger, because it IS a steak burger. And the steak burger patty is comparable in size and cost to other competitor’s steak burgers.

Now here’s mine:



Hmmm, something isn’t right. Yes, it IS technically a steak burger. It’s made with the same chopped steak. It’s juicy and tasty. I guess technically it’s “alright”, with “no errors” (that I can taste anyways). But, ummm it’s kind of a big let down. It’s 1/4 the size of the other steak burger. And compared to competitors’ steak burgers, it does not represent good value for my money. I expect the 2nd burger to be just like the 1st burger, especially since I’m paying for both.

Personally, I would not be happy with the 2nd steak burger, and I would never go back to that restaurant. But, I’m sure for some other people the 2nd rinky dink steak burger I got would be “good enough” and “alright”.

Now imagine the steak burger patties are the copper conductors inside a cable, and the buns are the wire insulation:




Sure, they are both “alright”, but which one would YOU rather have? I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but I’d want both wire conductors to be like the 1st steak burger.

And before someone points out that cables are not steak burgers, and the rules are somehow different for burgers and cables. To those people I would say ‘are they really different?’ Why is it OK to get gypped on a steak burger but not a cable?

 

[Mouseman]

@Slater -- dammit, now I'm hungry...

 

[Otto Motor]

I look at it like this.

I go to a restaurant with my friend. I’m going to treat him to lunch. We each order an angus steak burger, and I’m paying for both burgers.

Here’s the his steak burger:



Other than not having any trimmings, it looks good eh? Juicy, tasty, mmmm. Just what I would expect from a steak burger. It looks and tastes like a steak burger, because it IS a steak burger. And the steak burger patty is comparable in size and cost to other competitor’s steak burgers.

Now here’s mine:




Hmmm, something isn’t right. Yes, it IS technically a steak burger. It’s made with the same chopped steak. It’s juicy and tasty. It’s “alright”, with “no errors” that I can taste. But, ummm it’s kind of a big let down. It’s 1/4 the size of the other steak burger. And compared to competitors’ steak burgers, it does not represent good value for my money. I expect the 2nd burger to be just like the 1st burger, especially since I’m paying for both.

Personally, I would not be happy with the 2nd steak burger, and I would never go back to that restaurant. But, I’m sure for some other people the 2nd rinky dink steak burger I got would be “good enough” and “alright”.

Now imagine the steak burger patties are the copper conductors inside a cable, and the buns are the wire insulation. Sure, they are both “alright”, but which one would YOU rather have? I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but I’d want both wire conductors to be like the 1st steak burger.

And before someone points out that cables are not steak burgers, and the rules are somehow different for burgers and cables. To those people I would say ‘are they really different?’ Why is it OK to get gypped on a steak burger but not a cable?

Hey, is this a "Beyond Meat' burger and the meat lover was ripped off in both cases? Joke aside, I paid $8.16 for the cable (3 on order)...that's the price of a plain Jane 4-core not so long ago. But if the cable was twice that much, I'd worry, too.

 

[Slater]

I paid $8.16 for the cable (3 on order)...that's the price of a plain Jane 4-core not so long ago. But if the cable was twice that much, I'd worry, too.

That’s a good point. I guess I will be suspicious of 8 and 16 core cables <$10. My guess is to be able to hit that price point, some sort of compromises have to be made.

I also hope that TRN tells their tiger cable manufacturer to solder 1 yellow and 1 black to the same pin on future production runs. Either that, or tell them to start using a black wire with a thicker gauge conductor.

 

[lgcubana]

Hey, is this a "Beyond Meat' burger and the meat lover was ripped off in both cases? Joke aside, I paid $8.16 for the cable (3 on order)...that's the price of a plain Jane 4-core not so long ago. But if the cable was twice that much, I'd worry, too.

Same here. My priority was a colorful cable, that would be (maybe) a little better than stock.

When I'm walking around, most people can't see the thin black/brown stock cable and assume that I'm ignoring them. Actually I am, but hopefully they'll see the yellow braid and bother someone else. As most know, it's a royal pain to remove a well seated IEM, then have to twist it back in.

 

[Otto Motor]

That’s a good point. I guess I will be suspicious of 8 and 16 core cables <$10. My guess is to be able to hit that price point, some sort of compromises have to be made.

I also hope that TRN tells their tiger cable manufacturer to solder 1 yellow and 1 black to the same pin on future production runs. Either that, or tell them to start using a black wire with a thicker gauge conductor.

I wonder how many sellers are supplied by that OEM factory. It is in the end not TRN but xx who are possibly at fault. Second, how thick does a wire have to be to transfer the signal properly? For example, my NAD Viso HD50 have an ultra thin cable.

 

[LaughMoreDaily]

I wonder how many sellers are supplied by that OEM factory. It is in the end not TRN but xx who are possibly at fault. Second, how thick does a wire have to be to transfer the signal properly? For example, my NAD Viso HD50 have an ultra thin cable.

I'm not sure if you're aware but some of the guys from TRN came from KZ. TRN has to be aware of how to create earphones and cables by now.

We shouldn't place their decisions on someone else's shoulders (a factory) unless TRN says it's someone else's fault and not their decision.

 

[SoundChoice]

I look at it like this.

I go to a restaurant with my friend. I’m going to treat him to lunch. We each order an angus steak burger, and I’m paying for both burgers.

Here’s my friend’s steak burger:



Other than not having any trimmings, it looks good eh? Juicy, tasty, mmmm. Just what I would expect from a steak burger. It looks and tastes like a steak burger, because it IS a steak burger. And the steak burger patty is comparable in size and cost to other competitor’s steak burgers.

Now here’s mine:



Hmmm, something isn’t right. Yes, it IS technically a steak burger. It’s made with the same chopped steak. It’s juicy and tasty. I guess technically it’s “alright”, with “no errors” (that I can taste anyways). But, ummm it’s kind of a big let down. It’s 1/4 the size of the other steak burger. And compared to competitors’ steak burgers, it does not represent good value for my money. I expect the 2nd burger to be just like the 1st burger, especially since I’m paying for both.

Personally, I would not be happy with the 2nd steak burger, and I would never go back to that restaurant. But, I’m sure for some other people the 2nd rinky dink steak burger I got would be “good enough” and “alright”.

Now imagine the steak burger patties are the copper conductors inside a cable, and the buns are the wire insulation:




Sure, they are both “alright”, but which one would YOU rather have? I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but I’d want both wire conductors to be like the 1st steak burger.

And before someone points out that cables are not steak burgers, and the rules are somehow different for burgers and cables. To those people I would say ‘are they really different?’ Why is it OK to get gypped on a steak burger but not a cable?

I’m not just super impressed by the analogy, but also the time to find a
(create?) the pictures.

 

[Slater]

I’m not just super impressed by the analogy, but also the time to find a
(create?) the pictures.

Thanks, it was a tasty photo shoot

 

[lgcubana]

I'm not sure if you're aware but some of the guys from TRN came from KZ. TRN has to be aware of how to create earphones and cables by now.

We shouldn't place their decisions on someone else's shoulders (a factory) unless TRN says it's someone else's fault and not their decision.

Specific to the plight of the eight core, TRN cable debacle: I would squarely put the blame on the factory. It would be counter productive for TRN to tell the factory to do 90% of the work to present an eight core, but don't bother terminating all of the them. My theory, the manufacturer used inexperienced workers and it was less of a challenge for them to solder just enough wires, to produce a finished product, that would pass a low QC bar.

Watching the TV series "Shark Tank", I was fascinated with the challenges that entrepreneurs had, with getting their contracted factory to follow their designs properly. Especially when using a factory in China.

Edit to add:
That's not to say that TRN was blameless in bringing the hateful eight to market. It's also very possible that after the botched run was completed, TRN decided to cut their losses and sell them, versus taking the loss and doing a new run, with properly terminated connections.