[Slater]

Now we need the implications of the differing impedances within the 8-core cable. what does it actually do to the sound? Is it accidental or intentional? Allegedly, it is a common practice to get a warmer sound.

You would want to ask @hakuzen that. He’s the resident HeadFi cable expert.

 

[Otto Motor]

And so I did: I tested Tiger vs. a Kinboofi 8-core pure copper ($16.87) with two earphones: the TRN V90 hybrid and the Blon BL-03 single DD. Low impedance source: audioquest dragonfly attached to iphone SE. My impressions:

1. Both cables sounded good. There was certainly no audible problem with the Tiger
2. There was no difference in perceived volume
3. Both earphones sounded really good with either cable

I found, real or not, that the Tiger had more depth and a fuller and warmer male voice reproduction, more evident in the TRN V90. But even if this perception is a figment of my fantasy, I can't find anything wrong. If I had to pick a cable based on my test, it would be the much cheaper $9 Tiger.

I could measure the FR response with both cables attached to the V90 tomorrow.

My conclusion: the 8-core Kinboofi cable is vastly overpriced.

@HiFiChris would know more but he retired from this forum.

 

[Slater]

And so I did: I tested Tiger vs. a Kinboofi 8-core pure copper ($16.87) with two earphones: the TRN V90 hybrid and the Blon BL-03 single DD. Low impedance source: audioquest dragonfly attached to iphone SE. My impressions:

1. Both cables sounded good. There was certainly no audible problem with the Tiger
2. There was no difference in perceived volume
3. Both earphones sounded really good with either cable

I found, real or not, that the Tiger had more depth and a fuller and warmer male voice reproduction, more evident in the TRN V90. But even if this perception is a figment of my fantasy, I can't find anything wrong. If I had to pick a cable based on my test, it would be the much cheaper tiger.

I could measure the FR response with both cables attached to the V90 tomorrow.

@HiFiChris would know more but he retired from this forum.

Just so you know, people have been FR testing and measuring cables with various instruments for decades, trying to prove or disprove whether this cable or that cable make any real difference in the sound. Some say they can hear huge differences, others say they hear zero difference.

It’s one of the most hotly debated an controversial audiophile topics (not just on HeadFi), especially with high end companies trying to justify why their high end cables cost $100k, while other companies justify why theirs cost $50.

Blind A/B testing is usually brought up as a way to settle the debate, lines are drawn in the sand, and at some point, the debate (on HeadFi) gets referred to the sound science forum.

I’m just saying not to get your hopes up, in case both your ears and FR measurements don’t give you any conclusive or measurable results.

My personal philosophy is to buy a cable based on the physical design, construction, and value. Good quality plugs, quality solder joints, quality conductors, and features that are important to me like chin sliders, low microphonics, flexibility, low resistance, etc. Then I weigh that all against the overall value and bang for the buck a particular cable provides.

 

[Otto Motor]

Just so you know, people have been FR testing and measuring cables with various instruments for decades, trying to prove or disprove that this or that cable make any real difference in the sound. Some say they can hear huge differences, others say they hear zero difference.

It’s one of the most hotly debated an controversial audiophile topics (not just on HeadFi), especially with high end companies trying to justify why their high end cables cost $100k, while other companies justify why theirs cost $50.

Blind A/B testing is usually brought up as a way to settle the debate, lines are drawn in the sand, and at some point, the debate (on HeadFi) gets referred to the sound science forum.

I’m just saying not to get your hopes up, in case both your ears and FR measurements don’t give you any conclusive or measurable results.

My personal philosophy is to buy a cable based on the physical design, construction, and value. Good quality plugs, quality solder joints, features that are important to me like chin sliders, low microphonics, flexibility, etc. Then weigh that all against the overall value and bang for the buck a particular cable provides.

All I can say that I did not find the Tiger to sound bad or wrong by itself and compared to another, more expensive 8-core cable. These perceived differences between the cables were minimal and totally irrelevant in real life usage. Before I spend hours on detecting cable differences between a cheapo and a super esoteric premium, I rather spend the money differential on a better earphone.

I have to add that both cables used in my listening exercise are made of different wire materials. The connectors of the two cables are almost identical and so is the haptic.

I personally would prefer a round copper cable as comes with the Drop + JVC HA-FDX or any Sennheiser/AKG etc. over these uberbraided XX-cores.

 

[Slater]

These perceived differences between the cables were minimal and totally irrelevant in real life usage. Before I spend hours of detecting cable differences between a cheapo and a super esoteric premium, I rather spend the money differential on a better earphone.

A completely solid and logical approach.

Heck, some would argue that ALL 3rd party upgrade cables are a waste, and that the included stock cables are perfectly fine.

Everyone has their own philosophy on the subject, and there’s no right or wrong answer.

I personally think the people who spend $200 on an upgrade cable are nuts, when that money could be put towards a better earphone. But it’s their money and I totally respect that. If it makes them happy, then more power to them

 

[lgcubana]

Not so fast.

There’s more to cables than just how many wires are connected.

I finished my dissection. And yes, I can confirm that all 8 wires are soldered to pins. And that’s a good thing.

Here’s how they soldered the pins:

• (2) yellow (“gold”) conductors to L+
• (2) yellow (“gold”) conductors to R+
• (4) black conductors to shared gnd

Here’s the photos to prove it:





So if the ground terminal on the 3.5mm plug has FOUR wires soldered to it, why is the resistance DOUBLE on the ground terminal as compared to the + terminals?

Clearly, the huge resistance/impedance disparity isn’t caused by ‘fake wires’ not being soldered, because all 8 wires are soldered to terminals.

So what’s causing it?

Well, upon closer inspection, I determined it is being caused by:

1. Using 2 drastically different wire gauges
2. The way the wires are soldered (ie the configuration of what wires go to what terminals)

For #1 above, despite the black and gold wires having roughly similar external diameters (ie the insulation), the size (gauge) of the internal conductors is vastly different.

Once the insulation layer is stripped away, it’s readily apparent that the gold conductors are many times thicker. In other words, the actual gauge of the black wire’s copper conductors are ridiculously thin and tiny, and the actual gauge of the gold wire’s copper conductors are super thick in comparison.

Look at the difference side by side (2 different photos of the same cable, shot in different light):




So that brings us to #2 in my list above. This copper conductor’s size difference was compounded by the configuration of which wires were soldered to which terminals.

As I stated earlier, they soldered them this way:

• (2) yellow (“gold”) conductors to L+
• (2) yellow (“gold”) conductors to R+
• (4) black conductors to shared gnd

But because the black wires are so paper thin compared to the gold wires, the black wires have a very high resistance (and thus impedance) and the thick gold wires have a much lower resistance (and thus impedance).

Thin gauge conductors = high resistance, thick gauge conductors = low resistance.

How they should have soldered them IMO, was to better balance out the differences in resistance. Maybe like this way:

• (1) yellow (“gold”) and (2) black conductor to L+
• (1) yellow (“gold”) and (2) black conductor to R+
• (2) yellow (“gold”) conductors to shared gnd

Or, if the cable had a balanced TRRS configuration, they could have soldered them this way:

• (1) yellow (“gold”) and (1) black conductor to L+
• (1) yellow (“gold”) and (1) black conductor to L-
• (1) yellow (“gold”) and (1) black conductor to R+
• (1) yellow (“gold”) and (1) black conductor to R-

If they had done this, the resistance of the whole cable would have been even and not so lobsided.

Even better, they really should have used 8 wires that all had the same internal conductor size (gauge). Not 4 wires super heavy gauge and 4 wires paper thin gauge.

I plan on putting all new ends on my cable, and at that time I will use the opportunity to reconfigure which wires are soldered to which pins, so that the resistance will be even across all of the pins.

Now, with all that said, is this a ‘bad’ cable? No, it’s not a terrible cable. It is technically a ‘functional’ cable. It looks nice, has all 8 pins soldered, has a nice plug, a chin slider, and is softer and more flexible than the previous cable.

But is it a ‘good’ cable? Well, using 2 drastically different thicknesses of wire, and soldering them in such a way that the ground pins have double the resistance of the + pins shows a concerning level of technical understanding and cable building ability.

There are certainly worse cables out there. But there are certainly other cables (at the same price) that have all wires soldered AND have well-balanced cable resistance between all of the pins.

So I’ll let you decide for yourself if you’re happy buying this new tiger cable. I can’t make that decision for you. All I can do is dissect them, present the facts, and show what goes on ‘under the hood’ of these cables.

Thanks for putting in the time and effort

 

[Otto Motor]

A completely solid and logical approach.

Heck, some would argue that ALL 3rd party upgrade cables are a waste, and that the included stock cables are perfectly fine.

Everyone has their own philosophy on the subject, and there’s no right or wrong answer.

I personally think the people who spend $200 on an upgrade cable are nuts, when that money could be put towards a better earphone. But it’s their money and I totally respect that. If it makes them happy, then more power to them

I just did another test with the TRN V90: paired it with the Tiger and then with a cheap silver-plated cable generation "two years ago" (KZ ZS5 "upgrade", $7)...and I listened to Beethoven with some tricky wind instruments (waldhorn). Sorry, beats me...both sounded good.

Conclusion: have three tigers on order for $8.16 each and find they are good value for money.

My personal rule of thumb how to change sound in an earphone (from cheap to expensive):

1. Micropore tape for nozzle and/or vents (changes the frequency response)
2. Eartips (shape, bore width...premium eartips are not necessarily better; also changes the frequency response, but less so than 1)
3. Hmm...cable...but none of which is above $15 (it is, after all, also jewelry and microphonics preventer)...it is not about the price but about the right impedance...an expensive cable may sound the same or worse than a cheap one. This can change the frequency response in BA drivers, but probably only very minimally

Example: Blon BL-03 sounded only good with different tips. Cables made zero sonic difference.

 

[subwoof3r]

I know earbuds are the height of mediocrity, for someone that is accustomed to the low end that IEMs can produce . But I figured I'd giver it a shot.

You probably tried the wrong earbuds till now.
Todays earbuds are at the same level (if not even better) than most IEMs

 

[mbwilson111]

Heck, some would argue that ALL 3rd party upgrade cables are a waste, and that the included stock cables are perfectly fine.

I change the cable if the stock cable does not work for me ergonomically.. or it is ugly I also occasionally buy a balanced cable for some iems to use with my balanced sources.

I have seen people order an iem and then ask in a thread, before they even receive it, what cable they should buy for it. I always just want to answer "Well it does come with a cable, you know."

Todays earbuds are at the same level (if not even better) than most IEMs

Absolutely. Some of my buds are better than most of my iems.

 

[lgcubana]

...
Absolutely. Some of my buds are better than most of my iems.

You probably tried the wrong earbuds till now.
Todays earbuds are at the same level (if not even better) than most IEMs

I know my wallet is going to regret this, but I'll head over to the earbud thread and see if I can find something close to my current IEM rotation:
Moondrop Kanas Pro
iKKO OH1
TFZ No. 3
TRN V60 Pro

 

[baskingshark]

I know my wallet is going to regret this, but I'll head over to the earbud thread and see if I can find something close to my current IEM rotation:
Moondrop Kanas Pro
iKKO OH1
TFZ No. 3
TRN V60 Pro

Wow u are going down two rabbit holes simultaneously? U have my deepest respect!!! Better watch your wallet!

 

[mbwilson111]

Wow u are going down two rabbit holes simultaneously? U have my deepest respect!!! Better watch your wallet!

It is horrible... I have as many buds as I do iems. Plus headphones. All in my list which I believe is up- to - date.

 

[Assimilator702]

Look what USPS dropped off today.

Ok I did try to see how the V90 fit and I find them a bIt on the small side. I tried the stock TRN Large and Medium tips. I tried the NiceHCK tips in the pic in Large and Medium. I can’t get a seal with any of them. These aren’t looking good for me.

After trying 6 different types of tips with no success I found that Sony Hybrids give me a seal. Luckily they didn’t negatively affect the sound which I find happens in many sets since the Bore is so small. So it’s an umbrella type that my ears need for this smaller type of housing. Does anyone know if any of the Spinfits have the similar umbrella profile?

First impressions.........wonderful, massive and articulate bass. Intimate and forward vocals. Clear, crisp treble that’s not offensive. I’ll break them in for 20 hours but these don’t seem to need it. These seems to indeed be an improved V80. I would rather be listening with wider bores and don't want to resort to using foams.

 

[Otto Motor]

OK, I did not measure the impedances but the frequency responses of the Tiger vs. another 8-core cable (pure copper) using the same volume settings...which were 85 dB at 1 kHz for the Tiger. I then measured the other cable and the FR responses were identical. If the Tiger cable had an anomalous resistance/impedance, both graphs would be different in shape and the cable with the bigger resistance would produce a graph sitting below the other (recorded output signal would be weaker).

 

[Otto Motor]

Look what USPS dropped off today.

Ok I did try to see how the V90 fit and I find them a bIt on the small side. I tried the stock TRN Large and Medium tips. I tried the NiceHCK tips in the pic in Large and Medium. I can’t get a seal with any of them. These aren’t looking good for me.

Anyone have the same issue or tips on getting a good fit? I did have to make spacer sleeves with my first pair of IM2 so I’m thinking that might be the only solution. I can’t believe I have larger ears than most people. Maybe my ear canals are larger than most?

Yes, I used JVC Spiral Dots...see my review for the reported differences...which were huge.