[milosz]

Quote:

 
The impulse response shows that and if there really was a severe issue in the transient response at LF, it would show right up in the impulse response because of the rather long decay time at low frequencies (that's the ringing stuff in the mid-highs which is not particularly straightforward to see in an impulse or step response due to fast decay).
 
The one thing you may be alluding is the fact an electrostatic transducer is working in stiffness region below the first resonance (which is ~50Hz for the 009) while a traditional dynamic transducer operates in piston motion in that range. So, conceptually, you could raise the point of some form of distortion / compression effects. But in practice, this shape of the transducer has nothing to do with the pressure wave that results from it. Be it a piston or a stretched diaphragm like and estat or ortho, they all drive a small acoustic space which is again in stiffness controlled region (no acoustic modes in the earcup cavity there) and you get uniform pressure across the earcup.  
 
This may be hard to visualize so have a look at this, it is a contour plot of SPL inside and outside a stat headphone (not the 009 but conceptually it's the same thing) at the fundamental resonance frequency (60Hz here) where the diaphragm, earcup cavity, ear pad, and frame (assumed rigid here) were all modeled. You can clearly see the diaphragm fundamental resonance but the SPL in the earcup is basically homogeneous (and will remain like that until 1kHz or so, e.g. until it can sustain standing waves):

 
 
Well, then  I wonder what accounts for the differences in perceived LF sound quality between headphones?  Your thoughts-  ?

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

 
 
Well, then  I wonder what accounts for the differences in perceived LF sound quality between headphones?  Your thoughts-  ?

 
This is rather vague, what 2 pairs of phones are you referring to for instance? If they measure the same in the LF range, my take would then be masking as perception of bass extension and presence is actually affected by the tonal balance over remainder of the frequency range. For instance, comments as "fast bass" actually often refer to rather broadband characteristics of the phone rather than just its bass response.

 

[Icenine2]

Man I just dig that crazy visual!  Thanks!
Quote:

 
The impulse response shows that and if there really was a severe issue in the transient response at LF, it would show right up in the impulse response because of the rather long decay time at low frequencies (that's the ringing stuff in the mid-highs which is not particularly straightforward to see in an impulse or step response due to fast decay).
 
The one thing you may be alluding is the fact an electrostatic transducer is working in stiffness region below the first resonance (which is ~50Hz for the 009) while a traditional dynamic transducer operates in piston motion in that range. So, conceptually, you could raise the point of some form of distortion / compression effects. But in practice, this shape of the transducer has nothing to do with the pressure wave that results from it. Be it a piston or a stretched diaphragm like and estat or ortho, they all drive a small acoustic space which is again in stiffness controlled region (no acoustic modes in the earcup cavity there) and you get uniform pressure across the earcup.  
 
This may be hard to visualize so have a look at this, it is a contour plot of SPL inside and outside a stat headphone (not the 009 but conceptually it's the same thing) at the fundamental resonance frequency (60Hz here) where the diaphragm, earcup cavity, ear pad, and frame (assumed rigid here) were all modeled. You can clearly see the diaphragm fundamental resonance but the SPL in the earcup is basically homogeneous (and will remain like that until 1kHz or so, e.g. until it can sustain standing waves):

 

[tonereef]

Quote:

 
Haven't touched the LCD-2 in months, they are just so inferior to the HD800. 

 
I know what I hear and I'm far from alone in describing the 009 sound this way.  After I wrote that I got two PM's thanking me for confirming that they weren't mad and there was something wrong with these "perfect transducers" as they are sometimes described.   Plenty of people will think these are the bees knees but why is system matching suddenly a word you use in context with Stax?  Normally we have just advocated better amps, better sources as Stax sets did portray what they were fed, be it good or bad.  Now you need the right amp with enough top end roll off and boomy bass and a tube source which would have been considered badly designed in the 1920's....
 
As for the measurements, I have no doubt Tyll did a good job but there is a lot more too this then just FR, waterfall plots etc, and our understanding of these is severely lacking.  I'm the first to advocate measurements but you have to know what to look for and that zero isn't always the best outcome.  If you design an amp simply for the lowest THD then you end with the O2 amp and utter garbage.  The reason for this is quite simple but it goes to show that measurements are just one point of reference and with THD you actually have an actual one number to work from.  Measure transducers and this becomes an epic headache as it's quite hard to measure them under real working conditions. 

You know what you hear, and so do I. You haven't heard this combination. To characterize the result as top end roll-off and boomy bass would be absurd.
 
Um, what do you call the BHSE or T2 and the O2 - that isn't system matching?
 
And the 007s sound far from flat, even with a huge voltage swing to kick their pants.

 

[milosz]

Quote:

 
This is rather vague, what 2 pairs of phones are you referring to for instance? If they measure the same in the LF range, my take would then be masking as perception of bass extension and presence is actually affected by the tonal balance over remainder of the frequency range. For instance, comments as "fast bass" actually often refer to rather broadband characteristics of the phone rather than just its bass response.

Say Stax SR-007 mk 1  and Audeze LCD-2 , or Stax SR-007 mk 1 and Koss ESP-950?

 

[sillysally]

A little different perspective. 
 
As for pairing the SR-009's with a (lowly cost wise) SRM-727. I know that the SRM-727 takes all the fun out of tube rolling and building a amp that will dim the lights in your house. That aside this combo is truly a end of the line combo, at least for me. 
Coupled with my Realiser and HQ (5.1/7.1) audio tracks from Blu Ray movies, I have no desired to use my 7.1 speaker system. After having this combo of the SR-009's and SRM-727 for about one year now, it is still surprising me. Of-course the highs and mids are great, but the rumbling lows are teeth chattering (at-least what my brain is telling my senses) with no distortion. 
 
I am a home theater enthusiast, and as with calibrating the visuals of my display to what and how I see nature/life in the real world. imo for the cost and privacy of my headphone system, my audio is very close to what I hear in nature/real life as are my visuals.
 
ss

 

[gilency]

Quote:

You know what you hear, and so do I. You haven't heard this combination. To characterize the result as top end roll-off and boomy bass would be absurd.
 
Um, what do you call the BHSE or T2 and the O2 - that isn't system matching?
 
And the 007s sound far from flat, even with a huge voltage swing to kick their pants.

With all due respect, I think you got it wrong here.
The 007  Mk1 needs power to make it sing. That it needs power is certainly a hindrance, but not a deficiency from the sound stand point.
System, matching is designed to hide deficiencies in the chain or the headphone itself, not the other way around.
That the 009 doesn't need the same power to sound is best is a testimony to its excellent design.

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

And the 007s sound far from flat, even with a huge voltage swing to kick their pants.

 
I preferred the SR-007 over the SR-009 with KG’s amps.  
The SR-009 reminds me of the HD800, not so great synergy with a neutral amp.
Maybe the SR009 needs an amp slightly north of neutral 

.

 

[tonereef]

Quote:

With all due respect, I think you got it wrong here.
The 007  Mk1 needs power to make it sing. That it needs power is certainly a hindrance, but not a deficiency from the sound stand point.
System, matching is designed to hide deficiencies in the chain or the headphone itself, not the other way around.
That the 009 doesn't need the same power to sound is best is a testimony to its excellent design.

 
I agree that the 009 not needing as much power as the 007 Mk 1 is an advantage. But in my experience, the 007 never sounds as realistic timbre-wise as the 009 can, even with lots of power. They have their own different characters. The 007 has a touch of magic about it that's very appealing. I listened to almost no other headphones for 6 years, and I did love them. But I think the magic is related to the way it tends to "soften" the edges of sounds, dynamically and timbrally (and the less power it gets, the softer it sounds). Ultimately it doesn't offer the same degree of clarity as the 009, or the same brilliant, saturated hues.
 
By system matching I just mean that, like other headphones, the 009 and the 007 sound different depending on how you power them. And the 009 is such a high-definition transducer that it can sound very different indeed. I'm not technically very knowledgeable so I won't go out on a limb to try and explain what I hear. But I'm not convinced that there is an amp or type of amp that is inherently "the best" for all stats, or all Staxes, and that if that amp doesn't make the 009 sound right for someone then the problem is necessarily with the phones. People hear headphone sound more differently than speaker sound because of the head-related transfer function, right? That's a complicating factor that you can't design for. I just know that, having admired the 009 for almost a year yet having struggled to love them, suddenly I do. And most of the difference seems to be frequency-related. Acoustic instruments sound way more like they should. And there's more purity to the sound (which I take to be lower distortion), without sacrificing speed, bass definition or HF extension in the process.

 

[arnaud]

Quote:

Say Stax SR-007 mk 1  and Audeze LCD-2 , or Stax SR-007 mk 1 and Koss ESP-950?

 
I can't speak from experience here since I haven't heard the ESP-950 and I had only little exposure to the LCD2. Looking only at the InnerFidelity graphs, these three cans don't measure quite the same even if one focuses on the bass region only. First, the ESP-950 seems to leak to the outside, which shows in the LF roll-off and its membrane is tuned at around 80-100Hz rather than 40-50Hz for the Stax and Audeze. As for the SR007mkI and LCD2, forgetting about the inconsistencies across the various measured pairs (seems to all be due to seal), the LCD2 has significantly more damped resonance at 50Hz compared the SR007 sample measured by Tyll. The LCD2r2 has a pretty good looking measured response: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf
 
Looking just at the graphs, the LF response of the LCD2r2 would seem more in line with the SR009 than SR007mk1 actually.

 

[spritzer]

A bit of a late reply but I really don't see that I'm blaming the SR-009 for telling me some new truth and not liking it.  I've said from day one that they are not as detailed as the SR-007 so clearly they are not telling me something I haven't heard before.  Granted the detail on the 007 is far more subtle as they are by definition a very subtle transducer not going to scream look at me anytime soon.  This is a trend all of the great Stax sets have in common so the 009 really isn't telling me anything new.  Seriously, an A-B with them against the SR-Omega for 10 minutes and I had no issues with selling mine. 
 
Quote:

Um, what do you call the BHSE or T2 and the O2 - that isn't system matching?
 
And the 007s sound far from flat, even with a huge voltage swing to kick their pants.

 
How is it system matching to use the best amp available for the job?  There is no tuning in these amps to get "some sound", they are just supposed to be as linear as is possible and provide all the resources the transducers would ever need to do their bit.  System matching it to pair up components so they make up for each others weaknesses. 
 
Since when should headphones be flat?  Anything this close to the ears has to make up for that proximity. 

 

[milosz]

Quote:

 
I can't speak from experience here since I haven't heard the ESP-950 and I had only little exposure to the LCD2. Looking only at the InnerFidelity graphs, these three cans don't measure quite the same even if one focuses on the bass region only. First, the ESP-950 seems to leak to the outside, which shows in the LF roll-off and its membrane is tuned at around 80-100Hz rather than 40-50Hz for the Stax and Audeze. As for the SR007mkI and LCD2, forgetting about the inconsistencies across the various measured pairs (seems to all be due to seal), the LCD2 has significantly more damped resonance at 50Hz compared the SR007 sample measured by Tyll. The LCD2r2 has a pretty good looking measured response: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD2Rev2.pdf
 
Looking just at the graphs, the LF response of the LCD2r2 would seem more in line with the SR009 than SR007mk1 actually.

 
Interesting.  Upon listening, the Koss ESP-950 has more  apparent bass impact and extension than the SR-007 mk I. 

 

[Icenine2]

Quote:

A little different perspective. 
 
As for pairing the SR-009's with a (lowly cost wise) SRM-727. I know that the SRM-727 takes all the fun out of tube rolling and building a amp that will dim the lights in your house. That aside this combo is truly a end of the line combo, at least for me. 
Coupled with my Realiser and HQ (5.1/7.1) audio tracks from Blu Ray movies, I have no desired to use my 7.1 speaker system. After having this combo of the SR-009's and SRM-727 for about one year now, it is still surprising me. Of-course the highs and mids are great, but the rumbling lows are teeth chattering (at-least what my brain is telling my senses) with no distortion. 
 
I am a home theater enthusiast, and as with calibrating the visuals of my display to what and how I see nature/life in the real world. imo for the cost and privacy of my headphone system, my audio is very close to what I hear in nature/real life as are my visuals.
 
ss

Well stated sir!

 

[tonereef]

Quote:

A bit of a late reply but I really don't see that I'm blaming the SR-009 for telling me some new truth and not liking it.  I've said from day one that they are not as detailed as the SR-007 so clearly they are not telling me something I haven't heard before.  Granted the detail on the 007 is far more subtle as they are by definition a very subtle transducer not going to scream look at me anytime soon.  This is a trend all of the great Stax sets have in common so the 009 really isn't telling me anything new.  Seriously, an A-B with them against the SR-Omega for 10 minutes and I had no issues with selling mine. 
 
 
How is it system matching to use the best amp available for the job?  There is no tuning in these amps to get "some sound", they are just supposed to be as linear as is possible and provide all the resources the transducers would ever need to do their bit.  System matching it to pair up components so they make up for each others weaknesses. 
 
Since when should headphones be flat?  Anything this close to the ears has to make up for that proximity. 

Unfortunately I haven't heard the Omega and don't know anyone around here (Vancouver) who has one. Same with the Blue Hawaii. Anyway, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the resolution of the 009 vs 007. It may be that the 007 is a more subtly resolving transducer in some way I can't hear, but overall it just makes music sound cloudier to me, and if I zoom in on certain instruments in a complex tapestry it's harder to hear them as separate lines, and to hear as much of the detail and individual textures of the instruments. It's sort of like listening to an orchestra from the 10th row rather than the first row. Asr and others seem to be claiming that the 009 flattens out fine dynamic shadings and subtle inflections in the music, and that it can't render ambiance accurately. But I think it depends on what you're feeding it, whereas no matter what you feed the 007 it adds a characteristic coloration of its own. If a transducer always sounds a bit more "subtle" than real music, isn't that a fault? That the 009s can run roughshod
in the upper mids or highs and make you want them to pull back there, or not provide satisfying bass, only indicates that for whatever reason the source and amp aren't providing them with what they need to sound their best. I'm not claiming they're perfect. I'm just saying there's no "by definition" best amp for the job in this case. And maybe for headphones in general, given the differences in how different people hear through phones.
 
Yes, I know headphones can't measure flat in the highs. But the end result should sound flat, that's what I meant.

 

[shipsupt]

Gents, I am seeking some confirmation and few answers...
 
It appears (and sounds) like the left driver in my Lambda Nova Signatures has dropped out of place.  I plan to open them up move the driver home.
 

1. My understanding is the ear pads are simply stuck on with double sided tape and will need to be removed by peeling them free in order to reach the screws that need to be removed so I can access the inside of the cages and the drivers.  Is this about right?
2. Anything else to check out or do while I am in there?  Anything to be careful of?
3. Once I remove the ear pads I'm going to guess that the double sided tape is going to be done and will need to be replaced.  I'm also under the understanding that the ear pads are original (perhaps n3rdling can confirm, I got these form him) so it may be a good time to replace them.  My reading indicates I won't get exact replacements as they are no longer available, so any recommendations for which of the other Lambda pads to use for replacement?

1. The drivers are held in place with double sided tape?  So far the only source I've found for the pre cut tape is together with replacement drivers.  I'm planning to layout and cut some on my own.  Any tips advise on this process?

 
I'm feeling pretty comfortable with this from what I dug up in this and other threads, but since this is the first Lambda I'm opening up I wanted to check in.
 
BTW, rocking the good old SR-202 tonight which have been a bit neglected as of late... they never really disappoint.  
 
Thanks,
shipsupt