[ShaolinRasta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer Sure it's old but thats not why Stax stopped making them. Back in the day it was the simple way to add a transformer to an existing stereo system but today everything is line level so stand alone amp is a much simpler way. I'm not saying that the transformers are better, because they aren't but they are better then the cheaper Stax amps. The SRM-313 is so shockingly bad and annoying that I gave it to my brother and use the SRD-7 Mk2 instead for testing phones under repair and new untested arrivals. The transformers sins are those of omission so they don't add the hard edge the budget amps do.

There are many variables to this discussion, not least of which is that the nature of how most listen to music has changed dramatically in the two decades since Stax stopped making their transformers. Up until that point, it was understood that all "serious" music listeners had good amps to drive their speakers -- there was no other alternative, as dedicated headphone setups simply didn't exist. Given that environment, it made a great deal of sense for Stax to create and sell simple transformer boxes to drive their headphones. The resulting sound quality would scale up depending on how good your amp was, with the transformer box doing its best just to stay the hell out of the way.

Times have changed, so much so that my guess is that the majority of the folks on this site don't have a serious non-headphone amp. For those, the best way into the Stax game is clearly via the dedicated amp route -- while it isn't the greatest thing out there, the SRM-313 is an excellent choice given its relatively low price on the used market. For anyone who already has a good beefy amp though, the SRD-7 Pro and its variants are a no-brainer. As entertaining as it is, I'm not sure why this whole argument about which is better even exists, since I think it's entirely system dependent. Given my setup, the SRD-7 Pro blows away the SRM-313 by such a large margin that there isn't any comparison. That said, I certainly don't think that everyone should run out and get a transformer box -- in fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if some people would be entirely unimpressed with the performance -- in that case, the fault wouldn't lie as much with the transformer box as it would with what's feeding it.

 

[patrickamory]

Yay! No more scrolling all the way to the right to get to the next page number.

Let's hit 1000 posts folks. Tomorrow?

Patrick

 

[erikzen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiod /img/forum/go_quote.gif The SRM-1mkII Pro (for that matter all SRM's) sound a little grainy or harsh when first turned on. I listen a lot on weekends so I leave it on all weekend. If the unit gets too hot go to Radio Shack and get a little boxer fan. The interconnect cable also is important. I would consider some of the warmer balanced cables like Monster, Transparent, MIT. Music Fidelity makes a vacuum tube line buffer called a X-Can V3 that will add a nice bloom to your sound without loosing detail. It also has an extremely high input impedance that will not load down your source equipment. When the grain and harshness are removed the effect is more apparent detail and musicality. Hope this helps. AudioD

That's a big help, actually. I usually have the amp on all the time. It doesn't seem to get too hot. The amp has a lot of headroom so heat doesn't collect.

When you say balanced cables, what exactly does that mean? Wouldn't you just use standard left/right interconnects? My source isn't balanced. I'll have to look into that a little more. I was thinking about trying different interconnects as I've been told before they can make a difference in this kind of system. It's just hard to know what cables to buy and I'm not sure I have the time to experiment with a bunch of different cables. This has somewhat paralyzed me. Currently, I have a pair of Golden Raincoats. They seem to be of decent quality but I'm not quite sure how they contribute to the sound.

The X-Can V3 sounds like an interesting option that I'll look into further. I also seem to remember, way back when at the beginning of this thread that somebody suggested using a pre-amp. Can someone explain to me why a preamp would be necessary or at all desireable in a headphone rig? I know why it would be needed with a turntable but why bother when you have a perfectly good amp?

 

[Downrange]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stax went bankrupt in 1995 so it wasn't making money on its entire line. It dropped pre and power amps, DAC's, tone arms, cartridges, cd players and a few other things but stayed with headphones and the means to drive them. I would suggest that if the Stax people felt that transformers were good they would have kept building them Transformers were much cheaper than amps and if you are trying to expand your sales of headphones it makes no sense to require purchasers to buy the more expensive amps, especially if they are actually worse performers. Whether transformers are better or worse than amps, a noob should be told they were dropped by Stax in preference to amps. Maybe one day we can tempt some senior Stax people to give their version.

Spot-on post. I talked with Tats at Yamas about this very issue. His take was that Stax deliberately moved away from transformer boxes, and towards a better solution. In the eighties, most people were running a Sansui receiver, or whatever, and Stax needed a way to get these great headphones into their living rooms. Hence, the cheapo solution - crank out a bias box with high impedence transformer so Joe Q can afford some decent sound. No doubt, the Stax 'phones of that era blew away most of those old Cerwin Vegas, driven from the same receivers.
It's a new day, and Stax has for some time now been marketing amps designed to price points that match the various models of headphones. The little SRM-212 that came with my 202s does a very credible job, for example. I'd be very surprised to see a pro Stax transformer, driven by a mid-priced amp, come anywhere close to a SRM-007tII driving Omega IIs (Not to mention the after market alternatives, like the KGSS and BH). But, I'm still trying to acquire said transformer, just to satisfy myself about this. If I find out differently, I'll be happy to report back to that effect.
I think there is a really large bias in this forum, perpetuated by a few vocal members, to the effect that the old stuff is somehow "better" than the new. I haven't seen anything yet to validate that position, save the raves for the original Omegas (and associated stratospheric pricing, whenever they appear.) If the original Omegas were so great, I suspect Stax would still be making them!
The bias (pun intended) towards all things OLD in Staxen-land, in my view, has done little but encourage collectors (read: hoarders) and push Ebay prices sky-high on the "moldy old junque," as I term it.

675 bucks for a Lambda Pro headset with SRD-7 Pro... ya gotta be kiddin' me!
I say go with new stuff! Our kids will be here in twenty years talking about how great it was!

 

[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downrange /img/forum/go_quote.gif I say go with new stuff! Our kids will be here in twenty years talking about how great it was!

They certainly won't be talking about my SR-X, they're going with me to the grave.

 

[mirumu]

I'm not sure why the transformer vs dedicated amp debate is such a big issue, it's not like we can only have one or the other. I've certainly not seen a bias here suggesting you can achieve the best sound by using transformer boxes instead of dedicated amps. Quite the opposite. I'd agree there's a bias when a number of posters start indicating that their SRD-7 Pros with a power amp sound better than the ES-1 and there's no sign of that yet.

Yes, some of us say good things about the transformer boxes but I know personally I've had some very positive results with them and it seems others have too. Adding a transformer in the signal path is clearly less than ideal from a technical standpoint, I don't think anyone would suggest otherwise. The advantage is the lower cost and flexibility they provide. Their price performance is very good as spritzer pointed out. I'm as against the idea of pushing up the prices as anyone but clearly if the price goes up then there'd be even fewer reasons to buy a transformer box over a dedicated amp.

As to the new being better than the old, I don't think that as a blanket statement is particularly valid. Stax don't make the T2 any more but is that because they think the SRM-007tII ultimately sounds better? When it comes to the Lambda Pro many seem to prefer them to the modern equivalent, the SR-404, as well. We have both the new and old available to us and neither is completely good or bad. I see no problem in taking the best elements of both new and old where appropriate.

I appreciate the reasons Stax moved away from transformers and it's understandable given technical reasons and the modern climate but what we're offered is very much a "one size fits all" solution and an expensive one for those not willing to jump in an get a complete system from the get go.

 

[Tachikoma]

Quote:

It should sound exactly like when you remove the plastic film from a piece of metal. This happens only to my He90 when I press them hard against my head and never in normal use

Yeup, thats exactly how it sounds, and pressing them hard against my head can cause that to happen.

I'm not going to open up my drivers right now just to get a pic or two, but I remember that while there weren't any problems with the membranes, the gamma pro's stators had "burn" marks on it - probably from the sticking? The SR-X's stators had even more severe looking burn marks especially around the membrane holes, but I didn't bring them with me to Australia.

About the sticking: I didn't mean that it happens during normal use - it just happens when I move the headphones around my ear, or even when I take them off.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whether transformers are better or worse than amps, a noob should be told they were dropped by Stax in preference to amps.

But that decision was governed by money, not sound. Stax no longer make intergrated preamp/headphone amp combos, either, we'll never see a SRA-16S, but that decision wasn't governed by sound quality, either.

People aren't recommending transformer boxes because they're loopy, they haven't been inducted into a cult. With a good amp behind them they can be audibly superior to Stax's cheaper amps. That doesn't of course mean that people should be told that they're outright better in all cases, but there isn't anything wrong with saying that they can be better as a number of us have proven just that with our ears.


Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can not beat an OTL amp even though some might prefer transformers.

Assuming we're talking about a good quality transformer with a 1:1 turns ratio, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. Interstage transformers are hard to beat for stability and musical 'rightness'. If you're talking about transformers with big stepup ratios, then I agree. Most negative comments about transformers come from bad experiences with cheap, old transformers or from using ones with large turns ratios.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaolinRasta /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are many variables to this discussion, not least of which is that the nature of how most listen to music has changed dramatically in the two decades since Stax stopped making their transformers. Up until that point, it was understood that all "serious" music listeners had good amps to drive their speakers -- there was no other alternative, as dedicated headphone setups simply didn't exist. Given that environment, it made a great deal of sense for Stax to create and sell simple transformer boxes to drive their headphones. The resulting sound quality would scale up depending on how good your amp was, with the transformer box doing its best just to stay the hell out of the way.

And Stax started to heavily target professional markets about that time. Big intergrated amps or transformer boxes that need to be paired with poweramps aren't really practical when you're at a mixing desk whereas something like the SRM-1 is much more realistic.

 

[derekbmn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif You've totally missed my point. The transformers are crap compared to the Blue Hawaii, pure utter crap. They lack all of the macro and micro dynamics and detail retrieval that makes the BH so great. The effortless power and the way instruments and voices just appear out of the immense blackness in the background. You can not beat an OTL amp even though some might prefer transformers.

Spritzer , I'm curious as to what amp/transformer combos you have heard over the years ? If the Blue Hawaii is that much better than what im hearing now THAN WOW......JUST WOW. I've spent the last month tweaking my transformer setup for strictly using the OII with it and at this point it's simply mindblowing.The instruments and vocals are there floating in front of me and the phones themselves gone. But it did take some time to get to that point and some serious tube, IC and power cord rolling. Thank's for pushing a BH in my future.

(If I could find one)

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachikoma /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeup, thats exactly how it sounds, and pressing them hard against my head can cause that to happen. I'm not going to open up my drivers right now just to get a pic or two, but I remember that while there weren't any problems with the membranes, the gamma pro's stators had "burn" marks on it - probably from the sticking? The SR-X's stators had even more severe looking burn marks especially around the membrane holes, but I didn't bring them with me to Australia. About the sticking: I didn't mean that it happens during normal use - it just happens when I move the headphones around my ear, or even when I take them off.

I'm baffled by why this is happening. One reason it that the mylar has lost some of it's tension and/or somebody put in new diaphragms with out tensioning them correctly. They will still play normally so it is hard to spot. An easy fix if the mylar is a bit to "saggy" is to take a heatgun and heat them for about a second

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Assuming we're talking about a good quality transformer with a 1:1 turns ratio, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. Interstage transformers are hard to beat for stability and musical 'rightness'. If you're talking about transformers with big stepup ratios, then I agree. Most negative comments about transformers come from bad experiences with cheap, old transformers or from using ones with large turns ratios.

I would take a good interstage transformer over nearly any cap any day but this changes with output transformers. There are some very good ones out there but there is also a lot of bad ones. With Stax there is no need for the extra transformer so it should sound better given the fact that the amp is properly designed. Then there is the big question whether you like that sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by derekbmn /img/forum/go_quote.gif Spritzer , I'm curious as to what amp/transformer combos you have heard over the years ? If the Blue Hawaii is that much better than what im hearing now THAN WOW......JUST WOW. I've spent the last month tweaking my transformer setup for strictly using the OII with it and at this point it's simply mindblowing.The instruments and vocals are there floating in front of me and the phones themselves gone. But it did take some time to get to that point and some serious tube, IC and power cord rolling. Thank's for pushing a BH in my future. (If I could find one)

About 2.5 years ago I had a SRD-7 Pro (I still own it but I don't think I'm ever going to get it back) and I tried it on a number of amps that some local audiophiles had. I preferred the BH by a mile but the transformer had some redeeming quality's especially when compared to the SRM-313, notably more power and not those hard edged highs. Back then I tested it with a CAT JL-1, some AN UK SET's, one of the older Pass Labs and my highly modified ST-70 and Audio Analogue Puccini. I know use it with an old Kenwood KA-8100 because it has lot of good features for trouble shooting and it doesn't sound all that bad.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would take a good interstage transformer over nearly any cap any day but this changes with output transformers. There are some very good ones out there but there is also a lot of bad ones. With Stax there is no need for the extra transformer so it should sound better given the fact that the amp is properly designed. Then there is the big question whether you like that sound.

Well an output transformer is basically just a large ratio stepdown transformer (well, roughly), which isn't much better than a stepup transformer. The best way to use transformers is with 1:1 ratios, and doing current/voltage/impedance conversion other ways (except negative feedback, which to my ears is even worse). With electrostats (headphones at least), with their high impedances you can use 1:1 output transformers and avoid all these issues but still get the stability and precise phase-matching transformers offer. Of course, this is all assuming that good transformers are used, there are a lot of bad ones out there.

 

[Downrange]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif With Stax there is no need for the extra transformer so it should sound better given the fact that the amp is properly designed. Then there is the big question whether you like that sound.

Your post got me thinking about the "adjustment process" I've gone through with the Omega IIs, coming from the Lambdas.
I think it's easy to get used to a "forward" sound, and sense that's the way music should be. My experience with the Lambdas is that they reflect that "forward" orientation. They bring the upper mids closer to my ears, not screechy or piercing, just more present. It's an exciting sound. When I first started listening to the O2s, I was a bit disappointed, missing that exciting forward sound I'd grown used to. It took me several days to realize I was gradually re-educating my aural perception away from the forward slant of those Lambdas. After a few weeks, that re-education process is complete, and when I put them on, I "relax into" the Omegas with a sigh of relief. The ears are not "assaulted" with the music; it is more like the natural presentation of a live accoustic event.
So, now, when I use the Lambdas, they are still enjoyable for many kinds of music (if not very transparent), but I can't wait to get back to the Omegas. My aural perception has adjusted away from the unnatural forward presentation, and they don't involve me as much.
So, perception is a big part of the whole experience, here. I think people can really underestimate just how much of a swing occurs when they finally obtain a natural-sounding product. The second thing that was surprising to me was the amount of time it took to re-calibrate my perception; not a few hours, but closer to a week. Just some observations on how perception and judgement about things in this realm are not really fixed, but can shift.

 

[ShaolinRasta]

Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been more comparison of the pure economics of the choices, which I feel is vital to this discussion. I think we need to keep a relative perspective or we run the risk of veering off into crazy talk -- straight-up comparison of an SRD-7 Pro with a super-high-end dedicated amp (ES-1, Blue Hawaii, etc.) is just insane! Some folks are reacting to what they perceive as high prices for "old" equipment. What is crystal clear to me is that given the rest of my gear, the SRD-7 Pro is worth a lot more to me than the SRM-313 is. After listening to both, I gladly would trade that particular amp for that transformer box, and happily throw in some cash in addition. That statement applies to my system, and I'm well aware that it may not apply to others with different gear. With the right amp driving it, however, the pro transformer boxes are still undervalued in relative terms. I think that's the key -- no one should be arguing in absolute terms here -- if someone's gonna spend thousands to drive their Stax, then clearly the big boys take over the game.

However, I think the argument is a little different when applied to the Lambda Pro, which has been selling for what some feel are overly robust prices. I find mine to be on a roughly equivalent level with the 404's, with some more appealing features depending on personal preferences. Personally, I reach more often for the Lambda Pro's than I do for the 404's. I also think their black color is more appealing than the brown. That said, I wouldn't be mortgaging the farm for a set. The prices we're now seeing (b/t $300 and $500 depending on condition) seem to reflect their relative rarity more than being a statement of how much better they are than the 404's.

 

[Downrange]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaolinRasta /img/forum/go_quote.gif Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been more comparison of the pure economics of the choices, which I feel is vital to this discussion. I think we need to keep a relative perspective or we run the risk of veering off into crazy talk -- straight-up comparison of an SRD-7 Pro with a super-high-end dedicated amp (ES-1, Blue Hawaii, etc.) is just insane! Some folks are reacting to what they perceive as high prices for "old" equipment. What is crystal clear to me is that given the rest of my gear, the SRD-7 Pro is worth a lot more to me than the SRM-313 is. After listening to both, I gladly would trade that particular amp for that transformer box, and happily throw in some cash in addition. That statement applies to my system, and I'm well aware that it may not apply to others with different gear. With the right amp driving it, however, the pro transformer boxes are still undervalued in relative terms. I think that's the key -- no one should be arguing in absolute terms here -- if someone's gonna spend thousands to drive their Stax, then clearly the big boys take over the game. However, I think the argument is a little different when applied to the Lambda Pro, which has been selling for what some feel are overly robust prices. I find mine to be on a roughly equivalent level with the 404's, with some more appealing features depending on personal preferences. Personally, I reach more often for the Lambda Pro's than I do for the 404's. I also think their black color is more appealing than the brown. That said, I wouldn't be mortgaging the farm for a set. The prices we're now seeing (b/t $300 and $500 depending on condition) seem to reflect their relative rarity more than being a statement of how much better they are than the 404's.

Good points. Part of the economics of all this has to do with how people are using their equipment. Some 20 years ago, I assembled a fairly high-end two channel analog system (well, I did have a CD player). I still have most of that equipment, but my amp is now a multi-channel affair, driven by a controller, rather than an Audio Research preamp, and I've added more Maggies for the rear channels, etc.. It is used mainly for 5.1 home theater, plus a little surround sound processing for background music using 2-channel sources. My serious 2-channnel listening has migrated to headphones. It's just too expensive to justify the needed speakers and amps that can equal the presentation of really good headphones.
So, when you figure in the cost of amplification to the cost of a transformer box, the equation starts to get more even. An SRD-7 with pro bias may cost 150 bucks used; a really decent amplifier for that is going to cost at least several hundred more, and, arguably, to get sound that is truly good you'd need to spend more than that, especially for new stuff. So, if you're into a grand or more, you've got to start comparing this system with the better Stax dedicated amps, like the 727, or even the 007t. I don't think you have to go to the Blue Hawaii/ES-1 spending levels to realize improvements over transformers with good amps. I'm looking forward to finding or borrowing a Stax box to test my theory, but I'd be very surprised if the "break-even point" isn't somewhere around a grand to fifteen hundred bucks. By that I mean, spending the same for the box plus amp as the dedicated headphone amp, you reach diminishing returns pretty quickly. Certainly, no one has come on here (that I recall) and said their SRD-7/amp combo has beaten a KGSS with their O2s.

I'm going to make it a point to go to more flea markets this year, as they seem to be a very likely place to pick up some of this old moldy stuff to test out, without paying the ebay Stax hysteria premiums.

 

[ShaolinRasta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downrange /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, when you figure in the cost of amplification to the cost of a transformer box, the equation starts to get more even. An SRD-7 with pro bias may cost 150 bucks used; a really decent amplifier for that is going to cost at least several hundred more, and, arguably, to get sound that is truly good you'd need to spend more than that, especially for new stuff. So, if you're into a grand or more, you've got to start comparing this system with the better Stax dedicated amps, like the 727, or even the 007t. I don't think you have to go to the Blue Hawaii/ES-1 spending levels to realize improvements over transformers with good amps. I'm looking forward to finding or borrowing a Stax box to test my theory, but I'd be very surprised if the "break-even point" isn't somewhere around a grand to fifteen hundred bucks. By that I mean, spending the same for the box plus amp as the dedicated headphone amp, you reach diminishing returns pretty quickly. Certainly, no one has come on here (that I recall) and said their SRD-7/amp combo has beaten a KGSS with their O2s.

Yes, precisely, agreed on all points. Keep in mind though that the logic that Stax was applying back in the day was that the headphones were most often the accessory to the main system, not necessarily the main system itself as it so often has become these days. I concur with your estimate of a breakeven point somewhere in the $1000-$1500 range -- I don't know though what an Aleph 30 costs these days in the used market, but that might be a fine choice. I'm very pleased with the job my Sugden gear does, but don't often see their power amps on the used market. That said though, I don't think many folks here are advocating that anyone specifically run out and purchase a power amplifier specifically to drive a transformer box (although my suggestion would be to go with pure Class A in that case). Rather, the economics only pays off if you already have (or want to have) a better two-channel speaker system. A key consideration is the extra flexibility afforded by such a setup -- toss in some extra money for good speakers and you've got something that will do a lot more than just drive some cans. Unlike most of the posters here on head-fi, I listen far more to my speaker system than I do to my headphones. Given that, there's just no way for me to justify the large expense that would be required to give more than the basic SRD-7 Pro box already provides. I approach my audio purchases with an eye on the gear I already have, instead of thinking along the lines of starting from scratch.

Regarding your search, PM me. It's spring cleaning, so time for me to pare down some of the extra gear I've accumulated in recent months. This includes a backup SRD-7 Pro box that I could be persuaded to find a loving home for. [No more PM's on the SRD-7 Pro, please. They've found a new home already.] I'll probably list my SRM-313/SR-303 combo on the FS board soon too, along with a backup pair of Lambda Pro's.