[aangen]

 

I am going to disagree with you. If you move the bars to the top you have the same signal as EQ off ONLY for the frequencies that those few bars control . You leave all the other frequencies at 6 dB below the now boosted frequencies and you end up with a mess. The sliders control frequencies centered at the few points selected. Sure, it smooths out some but it is not "the same". The 6 dB drop is just plain not worth doing. Just don't max out the amp when using the tone controls. Doh!

And I will respectfully disagree. By pegging all the sliders to the max and then switching between CUSTOM and OFF I hear zero difference. I better get my hearing checked for the missing non-boosted frequencies.

"You" don't hear a difference. Well that works for "You" and who else? 5 band EQ and 10 band EQ systems only control the frequencies they center on, leaving the rest to fade to each side. Your ears don't notice this, but it still happens. Lots of people say "they" don't hear a difference between mp3s and FLACs. "You" do, right?

 

[thericochet]

  "You" don't hear a difference. Well that works for "You" and who else? 5 band EQ and 10 band EQ systems only control the frequencies they center on, leaving the rest to fade to each side. Your ears don't notice this, but it still happens. Lots of people say "they" don't hear a difference between mp3s and FLACs. "You" do, right?

Erm, it is fully verifiable that there is no difference.
Regardless of how the bands work, everything at the top is the same as EQ off because it's not attenuating anything at all.

 

[thericochet]

  I am going to disagree with you. If you move the bars to the top you have the same signal as EQ off ONLY for the frequencies that those few bars control . You leave all the other frequencies at 6 dB below the now boosted frequencies and you end up with a mess. The sliders control frequencies centered at the few points selected. Sure, it smooths out some but it is not "the same". The 6 dB drop is just plain not worth doing. Just don't max out the amp when using the tone controls. Doh!

See my post above.
 
What is your proposed solution, if the medically-necessary 6dB 'drop' 'is just plain not worth doing'?
 
a) have the EQ boost frequencies into the red (instant digital clipping)
b) duck the 'EQ off' signal by 6dB screwing over everyone who wants a clean straight-through signal
c) ?

 

[aangen]

I have said what I am going to say. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy you an ice cream cone.

 

[x RELIC x]

"You" don't hear a difference. Well that works for "You" and who else? 5 band EQ and 10 band EQ systems only control the frequencies they center on, leaving the rest to fade to each side. Your ears don't notice this, but it still happens. Lots of people say "they" don't hear a difference between mp3s and FLACs. "You" do, right?

I understand what you're saying, and if you can hear the difference then so be it.

The question I have is what is the falloff curve of the end frequency adjustments? Do they abruptly fall of a cliff or smoothly fall off from the adjusted frequency? 31Hz to 16kHz is a reasonable range to allow for a smooth curve that would dip in to the range of human hearing.

No hard feelings, just sharing experiences. By the way I like maple walnut ice cream.

Cheers

 

[thericochet]

It'd be nice if you'd make a suggestion for how it could work better though, given that to allow the user to adjust frequency bands by 6dB from a fixed point, making the centre point of the scale 6dB quieter than an unattenuated signal is inarguably necessary.
 
Devices that allow you to boost frequencies, but that don't have either this apparent drop *or* clipping, achieve this by having the 'EQ off' signal attenuated always, which is frankly a terrible idea but I will concede it does appease those who complain about the necessary 'drop'. It just won't appease anyone who wants the untainted signal that then won't exist.

 

[XP_98]

After a few days of burning in the E12, I'm now discovering with pleasure my new toy(s), X5/E12 combo
I can't define it very precisely, but I would say that to my ears - listening to NAD HP50 - without the E12, the X5 has a slightly wider soundstage, but less punch, warmth and presence.
What does the E12 DIY (I think in the future it could be available here in France) bring more, when you compare it with X5/E12 ?
 
Another question : do you use the provided TF card mini reader ? I think inserting the TF card in a TF/SD adapter that I can plug directly in my laptop is the easiest way...

 

[uzi2]

  See my post above.
 
What is your proposed solution, if the medically-necessary 6dB 'drop' 'is just plain not worth doing'?
 
a) have the EQ boost frequencies into the red (instant digital clipping)
b) duck the 'EQ off' signal by 6dB screwing over everyone who wants a clean straight-through signal
c) ?

c) Provide 12db attenuation only for each frequency.
 
This way there could be no argument that EQ off is the same as EQ all set to max, but you are bound to get people complaining that they are unable to boost a specified frequency, which was, no doubt the reason it was implemented as it was.
 
Edit: In fact, for Fiio to state that all sliders set to max is the same as EQ Off and others to confirm this, means that c) is what we have except that the labels are +6 to -6db instead of 0 to -12db. This would also explain why it sounds like a dog's breakfast with all sliders set to 0 - each chosen frequency attenuated by 6db giving a sinuous frequency response curve as opposed to the flat line provided with everything at +6db. Default position should be everything at +6db or better still label it correctly from 0 to -12db.

 

[aangen]

 

"You" don't hear a difference. Well that works for "You" and who else? 5 band EQ and 10 band EQ systems only control the frequencies they center on, leaving the rest to fade to each side. Your ears don't notice this, but it still happens. Lots of people say "they" don't hear a difference between mp3s and FLACs. "You" do, right?

I understand what you're saying, and if you can hear the difference then so be it.

The question I have is what is the falloff curve of the end frequency adjustments? Do they abruptly fall of a cliff or smoothly fall off from the adjusted frequency? 31Hz to 16kHz is a reasonable range to allow for a smooth curve that would dip in to the range of human hearing.

No hard feelings, just sharing experiences. By the way I like maple walnut ice cream.

Cheers

ooh! Maple Walnut, good choice!
And I have not stated nor can I that I hear a difference as I have played briefly with the EQ feature of the X5 and happily decided it was not for me and I hated it as I desired to. I merely disagree with the design intent of the 6 dB drop and I totally disagree that boosting all ten bands is the equivalent of no EQ. That just can't be so because you have made a 6 dB boost to only 10 bands. It's like math, 1+1 does not sound the same as 3.
 
You have to ask the designers of multiband EQ devices how wide the frequency band is affected around the center point frequencies. I imagine it can vary. That is one of the reasons they came up with parametric EQ. With those you can choose the center frequencies you wish to adjust. For me my favorite all time EQ control is one commonly labeled "Defeat". I have never been a fan of tone controls. If you don't like the frequencies you are listening to get better speakers/headphones/source material.
And I am picking nits to be certain. 
 
When I bought this E12DIY I was sad to learn they left the bass boost feature of the E12 off. I have another Fiio amp that I quite enjoyed the bass boost feature. But other than that I do not have any desire to second guess the recording engineer or the speaker/headphone designer. Those guys are professionals.  

 

[thericochet]

That's not the reality though. You have attenuated nothing instead of attenuating 10 bands.
The idea of boosting something is a myth on an EQ such as this with no additional headroom. You aren't boosting anything, you are declining to attenuate it.
If it's like maths, -6+6 certainly =0. Or even better, 0-0=0.

 

[nmatheis]

What if... Fiio implemented a pre-gain slider in the EQ?

 

[thericochet]

What if... Fiio implemented a pre-gain slider in the EQ?

Would serve no actual purpose other than allow the user to create digital clipping and then complain about it.
 
You can already set your highest slider to the top, or not, as you wish, and it is limited to being attenuative instead of boosting because (I suspect) a comfortable majority of users would not realise why boosting the frequencies they liked made it sound so terrible and would find the device to be at fault.

 

[Paul Davidson]

I only realised yesterday that the X5 doesn't have any internal memory. Quite surprised as it is quite a big machine. 

 

[nmatheis]

Would serve no actual purpose other than allow the user to create digital clipping and then complain about it.

You can already set your highest slider to the top, or not, as you wish, and it is limited to being attenuative instead of boosting because (I suspect) a comfortable majority of users would not realise why boosting the frequencies they liked made it sound so terrible and would find the device to be at fault.

I'll have to disagree here. The issue being discussed was whether or not setting the Eq sliders all to +6 actually raises the all frequencies to +6 or introduces spikes at +6 centered around the Eq-ed frequencies. If properly implemented, a pre-gain slider would guarantee that you could start with all frequencies at normal, non-Eq gain and then use subtractive Eq to avoid clipping. And if someone really enjoys boosting instead of cutting, they could do that, as well. It's just a thought and is implemented in a lot of Eq's.

 

[x RELIC x]

ooh! Maple Walnut, good choice!
And I have not stated nor can I that I hear a difference as I have played briefly with the EQ feature of the X5 and happily decided it was not for me and I hated it as I desired to. I merely disagree with the design intent of the 6 dB drop and I totally disagree that boosting all ten bands is the equivalent of no EQ. That just can't be so because you have made a 6 dB boost to only 10 bands. It's like math, 1+1 does not sound the same as 3.

You have to ask the designers of multiband EQ devices how wide the frequency band is affected around the center point frequencies. I imagine it can vary. That is one of the reasons they came up with parametric EQ. With those you can choose the center frequencies you wish to adjust. For me my favorite all time EQ control is one commonly labeled "Defeat". I have never been a fan of tone controls. If you don't like the frequencies you are listening to get better speakers/headphones/source material.
And I am picking nits to be certain. 

When I bought this E12DIY I was sad to learn they left the bass boost feature of the E12 off. I have another Fiio amp that I quite enjoyed the bass boost feature. But other than that I do not have any desire to second guess the recording engineer or the speaker/headphone designer. Those guys are professionals.  

Very good points.

I'm with you on the fact that I have no real desire to change the sound as intended. However, there are scenarios where an EQ can bring you closer to the sound as intended. Between my XC's my M-100's I'll choose the XC every day if I can. On a recent holiday to the lake this was not practical for me so I brought along the M-100 which (as I've mentioned before) I feel needs a significant bass reduction. When bass-hobbled I find the M-100 to sound more neutral and closer to the XC sound signature, which is too say more neutral and a better representation of the recording. The same can be said for the mids (slight boost) and highs (slight reduction) of the K550, or many other headphones. The point is that usage of an EQ does not have to mean deviating from neutral. It can quite often mean an easier way of getting closer to neutral when someone has no other options - gear budget, location, availability, etc..

I know you know this, but I feel compelled to re-iterate my stance on EQ so there is no confusion. Anyway, back to the EQ implementation on X5. I don't like it as much as the X3 tone controls but I'm glad it's there and feel that I'm not missing anything from the available frequency adjustments (certainly not hearing any weird stuff outside the adjustable frequencies). Others may disagree.

I'm getting some ice cream now.

Edit: This is my idea of when DAP / headphone neutrality takes a back seat