[good sound]

We all need to remember that when it comes to amplifiers, power output and sound quality are not generally inter-related.
 
In most cases how much power an amp has will have nothing to do with how good it sounds, as long as it has enough power to drive your headphones properly.
 
My question, in relation to the X5 and the E12 is this. Considering the E12's stand alone price, why doesn't the amp in the X5 sound at least as good as the E12? It seems to me FiiO should have been able to accomplish this easily and maintain the current list price of the X5 or very close to it.
 
Perhaps they are saving that for the X7?

 

[kennybobenny]

Thank you for your answer
What headphones do you pair with the X5 ? Maybe phones more difficult to drive than the NAD HP50 ?
I don't want to get an overkill regarding what the NAD can bring at his best...

I have ATH-A900X. They are easy to drive. The X5/X12 combo gets me to a sound that I prefer.

 

[XP_98]

  We all need to remember that when it comes to amplifiers, power output and sound quality are not generally inter-related.
 
In most cases how much power an amp has will have nothing to do with how good it sounds, as long as it has enough power to drive your headphones properly.
 
My question, in relation to the X5 and the E12 is this. Considering the E12's stand alone price, why doesn't the amp in the X5 sound at least as good as the E12? It seems to me FiiO should have been able to accomplish this easily and maintain the current list price of the X5 or very close to it.
 
Perhaps they are saving that for the X7?

If I understand right, this is not a question you're asking, but something you have noticed ?
 
So if you too think the combo X5/E12 sounds better than the X5 alone, will it be the same with X5/E17 ? Or is the X5 amp "just as good as that of the E17, but less than that of the E12" ?
 
And again, isn't it an overkill to add - to the already good X5 - an amp for a pairing with $299 headphones ? Will it really bring more out of them ?

 

[good sound]

 

  We all need to remember that when it comes to amplifiers, power output and sound quality are not generally inter-related.
 
In most cases how much power an amp has will have nothing to do with how good it sounds, as long as it has enough power to drive your headphones properly.
 
My question, in relation to the X5 and the E12 is this. Considering the E12's stand alone price, why doesn't the amp in the X5 sound at least as good as the E12? It seems to me FiiO should have been able to accomplish this easily and maintain the current list price of the X5 or very close to it.
 
Perhaps they are saving that for the X7?

If I understand right, this is not a question you're asking, but something you have noticed ?
 
So if you too think the combo X5/E12 sounds better than the X5 alone, will it be the same with X5/E17 ? Or is the X5 amp "just as good as that of the E17, but less than that of the E12" ?

Actually it is a question, but one based on a conclusion drawn by several members here. I have never heard the E12. I originally had plans to visit a dealer yesterday to listen to one connected to my X5, but that dealer is almost a two hour drive from where I live and I didn't get around to it. However, I definitely plan to eventually, as the general consensus seems to be that the E12 improves the sound of the X5 considerably going from the dedicated line out of the X5, and I just find it strange that a $130 portable amp would produce that big of an improvement from a $350 DAP, especially one from the same manufacturer of said DAP.
 
I can't comment on the E17 either as I have never heard one. The only outboard FiiO amp I have experience with is the Kilimanjaro. I bought one used to try and improve the sound from my old Creative Zen player. It did not, but I don't blame the FiiO amp I think the issue was that the Zen did not have a dedicated line out. I had to use the headphone out with it and with the E11 Kilimanjaro from the headphone out of the Zen the sound was all thick and slow compared to the Zen un-amped. 
 
To be completely honest, to say that I am less than enthused about the prospect of using any two piece portable system would be a big understatement, so the E12/X5 combo will have to be a very significant overall improvement over the X5 alone for me to even consider the possibility of toting around both pieces, even with the handy dandy HS6 stacking kit.

 

[issachar1943]

   
I've PM'd James and Joe to ask if they changed anything affecting SQ.  Hopefully should hear something back, and then we can put this one to rest one way or the other.  There's been no mention in the changelogs anyway, and I personally haven't heard any change.
 
Curious why/how are you so sure of the change.

• How long between testing?
• Did you back and forth several times?
• Did you volume match (with an SPL meter and a test tone)?
• Did you use same track?

 
I'm simply curious as to how people are so certain there are changes.  Unless you have two X5's abd can compare rapidly side-by-side, then the limitations of human auditory memory suggest that perceived differences are a guess at best.

 
As I said, it's very subjective. It's just a feeling. I used the same track same volume, to listen to a period of around 1 mins of a FLAC file.
 
Basically, the "test environment" is set to be identical except for firmware.

 

[ClieOS]

  We all need to remember that when it comes to amplifiers, power output and sound quality are not generally inter-related.
 
In most cases how much power an amp has will have nothing to do with how good it sounds, as long as it has enough power to drive your headphones properly.
 
My question, in relation to the X5 and the E12 is this. Considering the E12's stand alone price, why doesn't the amp in the X5 sound at least as good as the E12? It seems to me FiiO should have been able to accomplish this easily and maintain the current list price of the X5 or very close to it.
 
Perhaps they are saving that for the X7?

 
Now let starts with a question - if it takes all the internal part of the E12 to make it sound as good as it is, can we expect to reduce and replace a majority of those parts and still makes it as good as it is? Unless it is magic, I'll say the logical thinking is 'no'. Now if you follow that line of thought, summing up what X5 needs for the processor, the DAC, plus all the bits and pieces that required for it to function properly as a DAP, then take them all out - what is left is for the analog (amplification) stage, where it needs to settle with what are left behind (the limited space on the PCB and available power) and what it needs to deal with (like the noise generated by the rest of the system). Now going back to the E12, with its full portable amp worth of parts, and compared it to what is in the X5, do you think it is logical to think they should be equal in performance? Unless it is magic, I'll say the logical thinking is still a 'no'.
 
Can FiiO makes the amp section in X5 as good as E12? Yes. The question is, at what cost and does it makes sense or not? FiiO can certainly build it into brick size, but does it as sell-able as it is now? Who is going to buy such a DAP? Mainstream or audiophiles only? These are all choices that FiiO made during the design process to produce a DAP they think they can sell to their targeted market, and it certainly doesn't limited to audiophiles only.
 
Ferrari Enzo might be a great car, but it will suck as a family car for picking up kids from school or go to the grocery store. A mini van might be good at those, but it certainly doesn't drive like a sport car. The question you asked is pretty much like asking Ferrari why Enzo doesn't have the space and conform of the mini van. It is not a question whether it can be done or not, but whether it makes sense to do so. Just as you are paying for Enzo as a sport car and therefore it doesn't make for a good family car even though it cost a hell lot more than one, you are paying X5 as a DAP and not an E12 even though it cost more than an E12.

 

[darkarn]

Find an E12DIY and you'll be happy for a long long time.

Want another sound signature? Swap opamps, capacitors, or buffers.

 
For a moment, I thought you can do that with the X5

 

[XP_98]

   
To be completely honest, to say that I am less than enthused about the prospect of using any two piece portable system would be a big understatement, so the E12/X5 combo will have to be a very significant overall improvement over the X5 alone for me to even consider the possibility of toting around both pieces, even with the handy dandy HS6 stacking kit.

So I'm very interested by your future feedback
I just bought the NAD HP50 because it will be easier to drive by my X5 to come, and I'm reluctant to have to buy something more... unless it brings a very significant sound improvement.

 

[kennybobenny]

Actually it is a question, but one based on a conclusion drawn by several members here. I have never heard the E12. I originally had plans to visit a dealer yesterday to listen to one connected to my X5, but that dealer is almost a two hour drive from where I live and I didn't get around to it. However, I definitely plan to eventually, as the general consensus seems to be that the E12 improves the sound of the X5 considerably going from the dedicated line out of the X5, and I just find it strange that a $130 portable amp would produce that big of an improvement from a $350 DAP, especially one from the same manufacturer of said DAP.

I can't comment on the E17 either as I have never heard one. The only outboard FiiO amp I have experience with is the Kilimanjaro. I bought one used to try and improve the sound from my old Creative Zen player. It did not, but I don't blame the FiiO amp I think the issue was that the Zen did not have a dedicated line out. I had to use the headphone out with it and with the E11 Kilimanjaro from the headphone out of the Zen the sound was all thick and slow compared to the Zen un-amped. 

To be completely honest, to say that I am less than enthused about the prospect of using any two piece portable system would be a big understatement, so the E12/X5 combo will have to be a very significant overall improvement over the X5 alone for me to even consider the possibility of toting around both pieces, even with the handy dandy HS6 stacking kit.

For a lot of people the X5 alone will satisfy their ears. At first I was annoyed (I don't know exactly why) that it might be desirable for me to add another amp to the X5. Now that I have it I am happy I made the decision. At one point in my life a shot on 4" x 5" film. I lugged around a big camera and a heavy tripod. I only shot outdoors. I guess I have always had some giant brick attached to me. So the X5/E12 combo is just another chapter in my "walk quietly and carry some heavy gear with you "life.

 

[XP_98]

I would also be interested by feedback of X5 + E12 vs X5 + E17...

 

[issachar1943]

  If I understand right, this is not a question you're asking, but something you have noticed ?
 
So if you too think the combo X5/E12 sounds better than the X5 alone, will it be the same with X5/E17 ? Or is the X5 amp "just as good as that of the E17, but less than that of the E12" ?
 
And again, isn't it an overkill to add - to the already good X5 - an amp for a pairing with $299 headphones ? Will it really bring more out of them ?

 
Personally I don't like the sound of E12. 
 
X5 standalone could not satisfy me, which is quite a disappointment. However, with E17, the sound is amazing. 

 

[XP_98]

   
Personally I don't like the sound of E12. 
 
X5 standalone could not satisfy me, which is quite a disappointment. However, with E17, the sound is amazing. 

Really interesting... I will soon be able to test this combo myself, but what surprises me is that I thought the amp section of the X5 was more or less the same than the E17's one...

 

[good sound]

 

  We all need to remember that when it comes to amplifiers, power output and sound quality are not generally inter-related.
 
In most cases how much power an amp has will have nothing to do with how good it sounds, as long as it has enough power to drive your headphones properly.
 
My question, in relation to the X5 and the E12 is this. Considering the E12's stand alone price, why doesn't the amp in the X5 sound at least as good as the E12? It seems to me FiiO should have been able to accomplish this easily and maintain the current list price of the X5 or very close to it.
 
Perhaps they are saving that for the X7?

 
Now let starts with a question - if it takes all the internal part of the E12 to make it sound as good as it is, can we expect to reduce and replace a majority of those parts and still makes it as good as it is? Unless it is magic, I'll say the logical thinking is 'no'. Now if you follow that line of thought, summing up what X5 needs for the processor, the DAC, plus all the bits and pieces that required for it to function properly as a DAP, then take them all out - what is left is for the analog (amplification) stage, where it needs to settle with what are left behind (the limited space on the PCB and available power) and what it needs to deal with (like the noise generated by the rest of the system). Now going back to the E12, with its full portable amp worth of parts, and compared it to what is in the X5, do you think it is logical to think they should be equal in performance? Unless it is magic, I'll say the logical thinking is still a 'no'.
 
Can FiiO makes the amp section in X5 as good as E12? Yes. The question is, at what cost and does it makes sense or not? FiiO can certainly build it into brick size, but does it as sell-able as it is now? Who is going to buy such a DAP? Mainstream or audiophiles only? These are all choices that FiiO made during the design process to produce a DAP they think they can sell to their targeted market, and it certainly doesn't limited to audiophiles only.
 
Ferrari Enzo might be a great car, but it will suck as a family car for picking up kids from school or go to the grocery store. A mini van might be good at those, but it certainly doesn't drive like a sport car. The question you asked is pretty much like asking Ferrari why Enzo doesn't have the space and conform of the mini van. It is not a question whether it can be done or not, but whether it makes sense to do so. Just as you are paying for Enzo as a sport car and therefore it doesn't make for a good family car even though it cost a hell lot more than one, you are paying X5 as a DAP and not an E12 even though it cost more than an E12.

First of all I think it's eminently more reasonable to expect a portable DAP that is almost three times the price and already in a significantly larger enclosure than a stand alone portable amp from the same manufacturer, to sound as good as the stand alone amp, as it is for someone to expect a Ferrari to offer all the amenities of a mini-van. That analogy is frankly absurd. Even simply for the purpose of making a point I would hope someone would be better served not to utilize such unreasonable exaggeration.
 
Secondly I think a lot of your argument is born from assumption and some of those assumptions simply don't hold water. Even if those assumptions were all correct, it still doesn't explain the supposed amount of improvement adding the E12 to the X5 produces. Throwing away or reducing the MAJORITY of the E12 parts to accommodate it into the X5 chassis with all of the other necessary components for the DAP section is an assumption, unless you have some direct insight to FiiO's work on the project. Just because the claim that FiiO would have to use a much larger chassis than the X5 to accomplish the task, and that the final product would cost the customer considerably more may seem logical on the face of things does not automatically make it so.
 
Thirdly, and I think most importantly, is the fact that i want to assure everyone that I have no axe to grind against FiiO, but nor do I have any vested interest in the company either. I own and enjoy my X5 on a daily basis as I did my X3 before that, and I will seriously consider the purchase of an E12 and the stacking kit to pair with my X5, so it should be perfectly clear that II am not in any way FiiO hating. I have before and will in all likelihood again support FiiO in the best way I know how, with my wallet. I think my question and concerns were and still are valid and legitimate. Will not the X7 need a better amp section to outperform the X5 regardless of how much better the DAC chips are and how they are implemented? Will the X7 have a significantly larger chassis than the X5? Yes, of course the X7 will cost more.
 
ClieoOS, your position and opinion of FiiO have been clearly demonstrated in these forums and I truly have no issue with that. FiiO is a great company and they deserve all the support, but i feel that sometimes you tend to defend them with more than just a hint of defensiveness. My original inquiry was not born out of animosity, anger or malevolence, it was born out of discovery and legitimate curiosity. I certainly feel that i fully weighed all the factors that were available to me before forming and stating my inquiry..

 

[good sound]

 

  If I understand right, this is not a question you're asking, but something you have noticed ?
 
So if you too think the combo X5/E12 sounds better than the X5 alone, will it be the same with X5/E17 ? Or is the X5 amp "just as good as that of the E17, but less than that of the E12" ?
 
And again, isn't it an overkill to add - to the already good X5 - an amp for a pairing with $299 headphones ? Will it really bring more out of them ?

 
Personally I don't like the sound of E12. 
 
X5 standalone could not satisfy me, which is quite a disappointment. However, with E17, the sound is amazing. 

Excuse me if you have already disclosed this info previously in this thread, but do you connect your X5 to the E17 via digital(coax) or from the line out?

 

[issachar1943]

 
Really interesting... I will soon be able to test this combo myself, but what surprises me is that I thought the amp section of the X5 was more or less the same than the E17's one...

 
That's what I thought before I buy X5. I thought I could put the E17 away but no. However, dont really care as long as it sounds great.