The FiiO X3 Thread UPDATE: Project Back On! Read the First Post for Information.
Aug 26, 2012 at 6:54 AM Post #2,356 of 3,613
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublea71 /img/forum/go_quote.gif


What mainstream products do they sell? What mainstream shops can their products be found in? Since when did mainstream consumers start buying portable headphone amps? Have you EVER seen somebody wearing Beats (clearly a mainstream product) plugged into a headphone amp? The mainstream has no idea headphone amps even exist. If this is what they truly believe, then Fiio has no idea who is buying their products.

 

 
In Japan, you can find FiiO headphone amps in pretty much any Yodobashi Camera store. At least in the Tokyo area. So the mainstream at least in Japan is exposed to FiiO's products. But then again, Japan is electronics heaven...
 
http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?query=&cate=&word=fiio
 
 
I'm looking forward to the X3. I'm perfectly happy with consumer grade DAP's (mainly vintage ones such as iRiver H1x0, Kenwood HDD players, Samsung YH-J70 etc), but would like to see something that is a step above that in sound quality but at the same time kept at a reasonable price.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 7:11 AM Post #2,357 of 3,613
Quote:
 
In Japan, you can find FiiO headphone amps in pretty much any Yodobashi Camera store. At least in the Tokyo area. So the mainstream at least in Japan is exposed to FiiO's products. But then again, Japan is electronics heaven...
 
http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?query=&cate=&word=fiio
 
 
I'm looking forward to the X3. I'm perfectly happy with consumer grade DAP's (mainly vintage ones such as iRiver H1x0, Kenwood HDD players, Samsung YH-J70 etc), but would like to see something that is a step above that in sound quality but at the same time kept at a reasonable price.


I think that's probably the exception and not the rule. I could be wrong, of course. I hope they the X3 is unique in a good way.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 8:03 AM Post #2,358 of 3,613
Everything Fiio I've heard is mediocre to below average sounding (E5, E7, E9, E10, E11) by my standards.  Are you suggesting their lineup represents the pinnacle of audio performance available these days?

Even that third party you mentioned, whom I personally disdain, has a source and amp that are above average by comparison and most of my gear surpasses those.  DACPort is as good if not better than ODAC.  

For me personally, I need a better performing and designed transport or anything better than what I have already.  I have yet to see this from Fiio unless the E12 can surpass the UHA6S (doubtful).  I'd like to buy a Fiio as I tend to like the relative quality and looks (E5 was my first portable amp) but the performance is just not up par for me now.  Then again, I guess I'm not their market so there you go.  Mystery solved.


Good, but how much is a DACport again? Around twice as expensive as X3 would be? How much do you think CEntrance will price their own DAP with the inner of DACport, if they ever decided to make one? Probably not going to be much cheaper than a DX100 or HM901, right?

I don't remember I have ever said FiiO is high end in anywhere, just good for the price and up to the standard. We have had many 'hot' products in the history of HF with half the performance, twice the price and get the label of being audiophile, but I don't remember FiiO is ever claiming they are hi end or anywhere near that. I myself certainly don't think they are. Like I have said in the first page, if anyone is looking for anything high-end, X3 isn't it. If you think that's represent mediocrity than I guess that is fine as well. However, the fact is FiiO is just not making an $800 DAP right now, maybe they will in the future and maybe they won't. But it isn't going to be the X3 regardless how much we want it to be. The question at this point, I think, is not whether X3 is the dream DAP HF is waiting for. We pretty much figure that part out by ourselves. The questions are, what kind of DAP do you (not you specifically, but individual HF'er) want, how much you are willing to pay (and how much do you think is reasonable) and do you think you can convince FiiO to change their core business strategy? Or perhaps, iBasso, HifiMan, Colorfly, or another-brand is more likely to do that? Regardless, I do believe that's out of the scope of the X3 project.

Remember E3? It was barely an amp by HF's standard, yet it is the cornerstone for what FiiO amp business has became now. I hope most of you can understand why they want to keep to their root when you look back to the company's history. I am probably one the very few outsider that has the rare chance to talk to FiiO and get a glimpse on the success and failure in their business. Not saying I know every bit of the story but it would look to me a lot of the requests here are well beyond what FiiO can afford to do at this moment.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 8:41 AM Post #2,359 of 3,613
Why are we talking in extremes. I don't want Fiio to build an $800 dap. What I don't want is a $200 dap that sounds like an e7 or e17 AND is a big fat brick. Pass. If e7, e17 or e11 is the standard by which it will sound, then keep the size to an absolute minimum b/c many are going to want strap it to a better dac/amp. In the pics it looks huge. Why would you buy a huge mediocre dap, when an iPhone or clip zip sounds just as good or arguably better and is much smaller. If I wanted a tubby dap for digital line out, I'd buy the $200 Hifiman 601.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 8:41 AM Post #2,360 of 3,613
I'm hoping that the X3 sounds good, has good battery life, accepts a variety of audio codecs, has expandable storage and has a feature or two that others in its class lack - something along the lines of a J3 with a digital line out would be decent. I don't expect it to have the best sound of any dap on the market, but I'm hoping it has something to distinguish it from other products that makes me want to own it. It doesn't have to be expensive to be useful and functional - I think the E17 is a pretty good example of Fiio offering a lot of features for the price. It will win points with me if they don't include a video player (an example of less being more). If it can eventually be Rockboxed, that'd be another in the plus column.
 
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 9:25 AM Post #2,361 of 3,613
Why are we talking in extremes. I don't want Fiio to build an $800 dap. What I don't want is a $200 dap that sounds like an e7 or e17 AND is a big fat brick. Pass. If e7, e17 or e11 is the standard by which it will sound, then keep the size to an absolute minimum b/c many are going to want strap it to a better dac/amp. In the pics it looks huge. Why would you buy a huge mediocre dap, when an iPhone or clip zip sounds just as good or arguably better and is much smaller. If I wanted a tubby dap for digital line out, I'd buy the $200 Hifiman 601.


Exactly. We are talking about what kind of a DAP can be reasonably built in relative small quantity for $200 price tag and still ensure a profit for future R&D, but somehow I keep getting the idea that this $200 DAP should be $800 (or $400 if that matter) sounding. Remember an E7 alone is a $85 piece of amp/DAC. Even if we assume half of it is production+material cost, it is still $40 on the DAC and amp section alone. Then adds the SoC with the PCB, which just randomly assume it is another $40 (you can't save a lot of cost because you are only ordering a few hundreds to a thousand of them, which is very small in quality for a custom job), and there is already $80 of materials. Add the odds and ends and let call it $100 to make this supposedly X3. That's just the cost of making an X3, not selling it. To cover the overhead and ensure enough profit, let's put a manufacturer profit margin of $30 ($50 would be more realistic, but lets just put it lower). So the distributor get it at $130, and they need to add their own profit onto it because they already paid upfront, plus shipping, storage and custom tax (from FiiO to them), and now this X3 is close to $200 on retail.

Do you see my point? $200 really only goes that far and no more. That's why from very early on I have said that FiiO doesn't have the benefit of mass production on X3 to make it cheap while audiophile sounding at the same time. If you want a DACport or just an ODAC+O2 inside, the price will just climb up accordingly. That's the problem of small scale manufacturing.

I'm hoping that the X3 sounds good, has good battery life, accepts a variety of audio codecs, has expandable storage and has a feature or two that others in its class lack - something along the lines of a J3 with a digital line out would be decent. I don't expect it to have the best sound of any dap on the market, but I'm hoping it has something to distinguish it from other products that makes me want to own it. It doesn't have to be expensive to be useful and functional - I think the E17 is a pretty good example of Fiio offering a lot of features for the price. It will win points with me if they don't include a video player (an example of less being more). If it can eventually be Rockboxed, that'd be another in the plus column.


RB'ed is probably still a long shot, because of the same reason as last time (SoC supplier is not going to publish their code so RB team might have a hard time programing it). But other features I think I can somewhat confirm is the codec support will be better than the original X3. Expect the usual such as FLAC, APE, WAV, MP3 and such. AAC is probably on the list as well but I don't know whether the iTune variation will be supported or not. Video is default supported by the SoC, iso t is just a matter of enable / disable on the menu, I think. Other things we already know from the original X3 are of course a COAX-out and a line-out. TF card should still on the table, the question is on internal memory. The original X3 doesn't have enough I/O for internal memory but I do believe the new SoC won't have that problem. So it is mostly down to whether it is accessible by the user or not and how big it will be. The original battery life isn't very long, but lets hope it could be improved with the new SoC. That's all my guess btw, nothing official from FiiO.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 10:12 AM Post #2,363 of 3,613
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Do you mean DRM protected AAC?  I don't know of any other variation.  What about ALAC?

I thougt iTunes was unprotected non DRM?
 
ALAC did just go semi open source recently but not sure if they will have time to maybe implement it? Don't know.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 11:23 AM Post #2,365 of 3,613
If it is unprotected then it should be alright. iTune is incredibility unpopular in China (probably because many still get their music free, if you know what I mean) for quite some time now so many SoC don't support it well, and SoC company generally don't pay much attention on it. Even worst for ALAC, I would imagine.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM Post #2,366 of 3,613
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I have a similar story a few months ago in an electronic chain store where a sale person is trying very hard to sell me the new Reference S4 when I was there to do a quick demo to confirm my suspicious that it wasn't an actual upgrade over the original S4 (Klipsch has those demo stand where you can plug in your source and listen to all the different demo set).
Anyway, why would people keep assuming X3 will have a mediocre SQ? The original design calls for a circuit that has been proven to have been measured (by a third party) very well, easily match up with most of the popular sources these day. What kind of source do you guys think can be qualified as audiophile while what other source are mediocre sounding?


That's a hard question to answer ClieOS. But while the iphone/ipods, Cowons do sound Ok I don't consider them to be high quality sound. I'd only use them to fill background noise and not serious listening, if that gives you any indication. They just aren't that impressive to me, more so underwhelming.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 11:29 AM Post #2,367 of 3,613
Quote:
If it is unprotected then it should be alright. iTune is incredibility unpopular in China (probably because many still get their music free, if you know what I mean) for quite some time now so many SoC don't support it well, and SoC company generally don't pay much attention on it. Even worst for ALAC, I would imagine.

I'm Native Chinese. I know what you are talking about 
tongue.gif

 
Aug 26, 2012 at 2:22 PM Post #2,368 of 3,613
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Exactly. We are talking about what kind of a DAP can be reasonably built in relative small quantity for $200 price tag and still ensure a profit for future R&D, but somehow I keep getting the idea that this $200 DAP should be $800 (or $400 if that matter) sounding. Remember an E7 alone is a $85 piece of amp/DAC. Even if we assume half of it is production+material cost, it is still $40 on the DAC and amp section alone. Then adds the SoC with the PCB, which just randomly assume it is another $40 (you can't save a lot of cost because you are only ordering a few hundreds to a thousand of them, which is very small in quality for a custom job), and there is already $80 of materials. Add the odds and ends and let call it $100 to make this supposedly X3. That's just the cost of making an X3, not selling it. To cover the overhead and ensure enough profit, let's put a manufacturer profit margin of $30 ($50 would be more realistic, but lets just put it lower). So the distributor get it at $130, and they need to add their own profit onto it because they already paid upfront, plus shipping, storage and custom tax (from FiiO to them), and now this X3 is close to $200 on retail.
Do you see my point? $200 really only goes that far and no more. That's why from very early on I have said that FiiO doesn't have the benefit of mass production on X3 to make it cheap while audiophile sounding at the same time. If you want a DACport or just an ODAC+O2 inside, the price will just climb up accordingly. That's the problem of small scale manufacturing.
 

 
I very much understand where you're coming from but my point is why does it have to be the magic 200 dollar price point. I want you to check the following pricing in the links out.
 
Colorfly
Hifiman
DX100
 
On the far end of the price scale we have the DX100 behind them comes in Colorfly and on the bottom end we have the Hifiman player. Why can't Fiio find a comfortable medium and maybe put something out in the 400 to 500 dollar range that could match any of those players in sound quality? Yes I know I'm asking a lot but I think it could be done. From what I understand the biggest cost is R&D specifically getting whatever OS they choose to work well. What a lot of these companies seem to not understand is keep that OS as simple as possible and above all make sure it runs as fluid as possible meaning keep the code as simple as possible so it doesn't demand more power from the processor thereby slowing down the player. Have playlists and music listing by genre, artist and album and very little else and it should be doable. This is a product made for the music enthusiast who couldn't care less about wi-fi Angry Birds or video codec support so why bother wasting time and money on a gimmicky features that will stink to begin with and probably never be used by the end user. By the way where did the magic 200 dollar price point come from? Has Fiio made a statement on pricing yet?
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 2:29 PM Post #2,369 of 3,613
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You asked what constitutes medioce SQ from 'audiophile' grade or what not.  That was my answer completely unrelated to what the DACPort LX costs.  The ODAC doesn't cost that either and neither does the Dragonfly.  My points all argue against the idea of Fiio making a $800 sounding product.  That's precisely why we are asking for the ability to play well w/ other high-end gear because as you say, Fiio isn't interested in that market.  A $200 product that can play nice w/ better sounding amps/dacs whatever the cost would be nice.
 
Anyway, I'm not trying to make a big deal about any of this so don't misunderstand my intentions.  Just offering a counterpoint.
 
Aug 26, 2012 at 2:33 PM Post #2,370 of 3,613
My guess would be that at 200 or under fiio can sell many multiples of the numbers of those listed combined. 
 
Maybe our attention would be better directed in trying to bring companies such as colorfly, hifiman and ibasso into making these products that are suggested such as transport with the features we would like that trying to shift a budget company such as fiio into stepping up to "premium" game.
 

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