[Surf Monkey]

BQEYZ Wind just posted my review loved it. Slightly warm , lush with amazing stage open backness. Definitely worth considering. EA1000 up there as well for me.

I’m very interested in the Wind.

 

[H T T]

Palladium is an inferior conductor compared to coinage metals (Cu, Ag, Au).
Silver is bright only if one hears past 100+ kHz.
Capacitance and inductance of IEM cables being any significant factor is a long-abandoned myth. Resistance does matter in a very straightforward way.
Coat hangers (rich and diverse iron alloys) are proven/acclaimed winners of blind cable tests NiceHCK had a good chuckle with "audiophiles" with few alloy cables of their...
(Repeating, just to be pedantic, and cables rhyme with IEMs like Trifecta, as per other hard-core "myths" along the great classics of Hans Christian Andersen).

On another note, not ordeing from Ali Express (banned them from my existence, finally), I opted to get "Project Red" on Amazon (one-day shipping, tomorrow will it come). $50 purely to compare with Castors - so "gather children", as Crinnacle nicely put it ( mature audiophiles are also more then welcome, of course) - I hope to tell you the story (limited time pending) about how Project Red can compete with toasters, pardon, Castors

Answer me this, when I switch cables and don’t hear a difference then am I correct but when, on isolated occasions, I DO hear a difference from a cable switch am I wrong or a victim of expectation bias? Am I blindly believing what “I want to hear” in either or both scenarios? If either, which one? Or perhaps, there are times when a cable change really does make a difference? You are the expert “myth destroyer”, as you posted above. Please tell me what is truth and what is myth from what my experiences with cables have given me.

(Cable discussion, feel free to skip this!)

This is always a touchy subject so I’ll begin by making clear that have seen many of your posts and have respect for your knowledge and experience.

Initially I also had the “cables don’t affect sound” attitude. Early in the hobby, I bought some cheap NiceHCK cables for the looks and was pleased that there seemed to be a slight improvement in sound over the stock cables I had been using. I didn’t think much about it until got a more serious cable bundled with the Venture Electronics Azure. There was no doubt that it sounded crisper and clearer. Since then I have experimented a lot with cables, though I have never bought really expensive ones. The following is based on my experience, as well as my training as a (former) experimental physicist.

There are a few things I’d like to unpick with the myths and realities of cables because there is way too much disagreement on this subject, and it really is not healthy for the community.

First, few would argue that a badly made cable of very inferior components does make everything sound worse. Once you have a cable that is made to an acceptable standard, you are more-or-less hearing the IEM as intended. Hopefully we agree at this point.

Most who have listened to a cheap silver cable and compared it to standard copper cable hear a difference, with the silver being thinner and brighter and the copper being relatively warm. This can be tested with $20 cables. Materials do have an effect, though what effect, how much of an effect, and whether there is any point in using anything beyond a basic cable is debatable.

At this point is should mention the snake oil. We have all seen wild claims that try to justify high prices. I make no arguments that a cable forged of dwarf-mined copper in the heat of Mount Doom and sprinkled with diamond dust will do anything for your audio setup! Let’s keep the discussion to the less wacky end of the market.

After-market cables are mostly of 2 types: upgraded cables with supposedly ever better materials and construction, and tuning cables designed to change the sound.

Upgrade cables seem to use ever more refined materials to make the cable as transparent as possible. Whether this is worth doing is a matter of personal taste, and the effects depend very much on the gear you are using. As with most things in this hobby, diminishing returns kick in fast, and you will get a lot more of an improvement going from a bad KZ stock cable to a well made $15 cable than you will when you go from that $15 dollar cable to a $50 cable.

Tuning cables are a different matter. They deliberately use materials and construction tricks to change the sound. Essentially it is a passive EQ. I use a cheap NiceHCK BlackCat to boost mids on my BL03 as I found the mid scoop too deep. My EPZ Q1 has a cheap silver cable that cuts through the muddiness of that IEM. Most IEMs don’t need such alteration, and it can often be done by other means (tips, filters, electronic EQ). But cable tuning is a thing, whether or not you wish to use it.

Digital signals are independent of the cable material, but the analogue signals that carry music into our IEMs are subject to frequency dependent effects from the medium through which they pass.

The point of this excessively long post? Please don’t simply discount cables as pointless. You don’t need to bother with them, but that doesn’t meant they don’t affect sound.

This is not intended as an attack on anyone. Quite the opposite. Just as our community has people who like EQ, or who buy flagship level gear, or purchase based on cosmetics more than sound, there are some who like to explore the sound effects of cabling. That doesn’t make us crazy or stupid. Ignore it or embrace it, please enjoy the audiophile hobby in whatever way works for you.

Well said.

 

[baskingshark]

Seems the Salnotes Zero 2 will have a bit more bass than the OG. Shells looks the same in profile.

https://www.facebook.com/stin9ray/p...oPwBVN2NuKdgPCiejjLjAhRd7zLzC2hjj8fKHThNyATYl

 

[Kyonnie]

I get the notion that more expensive cables affect sound somewhat but the difference doesn't justify the ludicrous prices boutique companies like Effect Audio charge for their highest end models which I believe is a fat $5,000.

Can't be a cable atheist yet when I've never tried cables past 80 USD (I think the EST 112 stock cable is the most expensive I've tried so far.) but companies charging thousands for a single cable will always raise an eyebrow.

I'm wondering where the whole luxury cable rabbit hole started? Seems like it started with stereo cables around 20 years ago.

The earliest reference to super expensive audio cables I could find goes back to 2007.

Also take into consideration that cables are consumable items and buying cables as or more expensive than your gear doesn't really make sense if you're only hoping to make it sound good just buy a better gear at that point

 

[Kyonnie]

Seems the Salnotes Zero 2 will have a bit more bass than the OG. Shells looks the same in profile.






https://www.facebook.com/stin9ray/p...oPwBVN2NuKdgPCiejjLjAhRd7zLzC2hjj8fKHThNyATYl

I guess you couldn't go wrong with that tuning most people's complaint in the first one is the bass so it's a step in the right direction I just hope it's not just a retune and that it'll have a better driver in it

Edit: I'm more interested to the eartips than the IEMs themselves tbh lol

 

[o0genesis0o]

I get the notion that more expensive cables affect sound somewhat but the difference doesn't justify the ludicrous prices boutique companies like Effect Audio charge for their highest end models which I believe is a fat $5,000.

Can't be a cable atheist yet when I've never tried cables past 80 USD (I think the EST 112 stock cable is the most expensive I've tried so far.) but companies charging thousands for a single cable will always raise an eyebrow.

I'm wondering where the whole luxury cable rabbit hole started? Seems like it started with stereo cables around 20 years ago.

The earliest reference to super expensive audio cables I could find goes back to 2007.

@Bosk has some pretty great points in his epic cable comparisons: https://soundlymusical.com/2023/08/03/2023-cable-shootout/16/

Personally, I couldn’t careless for those thousand dollars cable. Even if they can do something, they are such bad return of investment that I have no reason to pursue, especially since there are still many IEMs out there I want to buy and test.

In general, I found that differences between normal cables (aka the stock 4 wire ones that is everywhere) are practically nonexistent. However, some odd cables can shift the presentation of IEMs in unexpected ways. Bosk has a DIY cable that feels like a coat hanger that changes the staging and tonality of my U12t noticeably. Effect Audio has another one of those coat hanger cable called Code 23 that also has an interesting change of sound. The Ares 8w also changes the U12t a bit comparing to a 4w by Dr Juggles that I have.

To me personally, I would grab something from the generic line of Effect Audio if I have spare dough. They are luxurious buy for sure, but they also have nice build quality and accessories. I wouldn’t go out of my way to buy cable to “tune” IEM, but if a good deal come, I’m happy to grab one for the bling. Change of sound is a minor bonus.

 

[Kyonnie]

@Bosk has some pretty great points in his epic cable comparisons: https://soundlymusical.com/2023/08/03/2023-cable-shootout/16/

Personally, I couldn’t careless for those thousand dollars cable. Even if they can do something, they are such bad return of investment that I have no reason to pursue, especially since there are still many IEMs out there I want to buy and test.

In general, I found that differences between normal cables (aka the stock 4 wire ones that is everywhere) are practically nonexistent. However, some odd cables can shift the presentation of IEMs in unexpected ways. Bosk has a DIY cable that feels like a coat hanger that changes the staging and tonality of my U12t noticeably. Effect Audio has another one of those coat hanger cable called Code 23 that also has an interesting change of sound. The Ares 8w also changes the U12t a bit comparing to a 4w by Dr Juggles that I have.

To me personally, I would grab something from the generic line of Effect Audio if I have spare dough. They are luxurious buy for sure, but they also have nice build quality and accessories. I wouldn’t go out of my way to buy cable to “tune” IEM, but if a good deal come, I’m happy to grab one for the bling. Change of sound is a minor bonus.

Just get yourself one of those impedance adapters much cheaper same results imho

 

[o0genesis0o]

Just get yourself one of those impedance adapters much cheaper same results imho

The thing about audio, IMHO, is that a small change can have big effect, but over do it might go the opposite direction. Just think of EQ. A right amount of treble air open up the stage. Too little, no effect. Too much, it’s weird. Same with 1.25kHz. A bit extra, vocal is forward and nice. A touch more, now it’s right up in your nose and sounds honky.

Oh, and impedance adapters are uglier than a shiny thick cable

 

[baskingshark]

Moondrop Dark Saber is $120 off on Linsoul...anyone biting? I thought that one wasn't even out yet.

There were a few reports of the 2-pin connector/shell breaking for first adopters on the Dark Saber, which is quite unacceptable for such an expensive IEM.

Besides the price (which is a deterrent for blind purchasing), Moondrop has released a series of meh stuff since the Stellaris. Sticking to waifus and VSDF graphs will only get you so far in the ultra competitive CHIFI market. They look like they are running out of ideas - needing to ride on nostalgia to release sequels of well regarded stuff like the CHU II, Starfield II, Solis II, Aria 2 etc.

Still undecided on what to do with $100 LEC from Linsoul. Torn between the Aladdin, Simgot EA1000, Tanchjim Oxygen, or getting a Shanling CD80. The Aladdin came in late. I had forgotten it. Anyone care to share their recent experiences and compare with any of these others if you own them. Not sure what I would get in the CD80 and whether buying the ECMini would be wiser?

I have not tried the Aladdin and Shanling CD80.

But for Oxygen versus Simgot EA1000, the Oxygen is harder to drive, and it does not have tuning nozzles. The Oxygen is also fussy with fit, due to short stubby nozzles, and some users might need mods of aftermarket longer tips to salvage the fit.

Both are following variants of the Harman curve, though the Oxygen has more sub-bass. The Oxygen is however more sedate in the upper mids/lower treble as compared to the Fermat, which is brighter across most tuning nozzles.

Technicalities go to the EA1000, with the Oxygen lagging slightly behind in soundstage, instrument separation and micro-detailing. The EA1000 is probably the class leader in technical chops at the $200 range for a DD set (granted it has a purported passive radiator inside also). So if you are a technical geek, the EA1000 is the better option.

I get the notion that more expensive cables affect sound somewhat but the difference doesn't justify the ludicrous prices boutique companies like Effect Audio charge for their highest end models which I believe is a fat $5,000.

Can't be a cable atheist yet when I've never tried cables past 80 USD (I think the EST 112 stock cable is the most expensive I've tried so far.) but companies charging thousands for a single cable will always raise an eyebrow.

I'm wondering where the whole luxury cable rabbit hole started? Seems like it started with stereo cables around 20 years ago.

The earliest reference to super expensive audio cables I could find goes back to 2007.

Bro, even CHIFI has some exorbitant cables. Check out the Xiaofan Ortiz at a cool USD $4300!

 

[Kyonnie]

The thing about audio, IMHO, is that a small change can have big effect, but over do it might go the opposite direction. Just think of EQ. A right amount of treble air open up the stage. Too little, no effect. Too much, it’s weird. Same with 1.25kHz. A bit extra, vocal is forward and nice. A touch more, now it’s right up in your nose and sounds honky.

Oh, and impedance adapters are uglier than a shiny thick cable

So true; that's why I don't use them; I'm just giving alternatives so people have more options to choose from. Personally, I only buy cables for their looks. I don't have beef with cable enthusiasts, but I just think it's ridiculous that companies are charging this much for those cables that probably cost less to make.

 

[o0genesis0o]

Sticking to waifus and VSDF graphs

They seem to tune worse and worse the more they try to match their VSDF target. Maybe at some point they need to sit back and ask whether their hypothesis behind that target is right. Curious phenomenon, since I recall that they have these expensive 5128 HATS long time ago.

Wonder if they are doing better in real world than on head-fi and with reviewers.

---

@Kyonnie there are some DIY cable makers in my circle. I’m shocked to learn how expensive the raw materials of these cables are. Still don’t understand how nicehck can sell them so cheap. Though I must say that my nicehck cables have pretty shoddy build quality.

The markup is still incredible with branded cables though. That’s why I’m sticking to the lowest end of Effect Audio if I were to buy a non-nicehck cable.

 

[Kyonnie]

There were a few reports of the 2-pin connector/shell breaking for first adopters on the Dark Saber, which is quite unacceptable for such an expensive IEM.

Besides the price (which is a deterrent for blind purchasing), Moondrop has released a series of meh stuff since the Stellaris. Sticking to waifus and VSDF graphs will only get you so far in the ultra competitive CHIFI market. They look like they are running out of ideas - needing to ride on nostalgia to release sequels of well regarded stuff like the CHU II, Starfield II, Solis II, Aria 2 etc.

Seems like it they're releasing one after another

@Kyonnie there are some DIY cable makers in my circle. I’m shocked to learn how expensive the raw materials of these cables are. Still don’t understand how nicehck can sell them so cheap. Though I must say that my nicehck cables have pretty shoddy build quality.

The markup is still incredible with branded cables though. That’s why I’m sticking to the lowest end of Effect Audio if I were to buy a non-nicehck cable.

Yeah I'm into custom cables too the main reason I think how niceHCK is able to do it is because they buy and produce in bulk which really cuts the cost either that or they're lying/cheating on their spec sheets

 

[baskingshark]

They seem to tune worse and worse the more they try to match their VSDF target. Maybe at some point they need to sit back and ask whether their hypothesis behind that target is right. Curious phenomenon, since I recall that they have these expensive 5128 HATS long time ago.

Wonder if they are doing better in real world than on head-fi and with reviewers.

I spoke to some reps at audio shows before, and gave my feedback about this. Apparently, the CHIFI reps say the Western market is not their main market for sales. Apparently the mainland Chinese market and nearby Japan/Korea prefer brighter tunings and generate way more sales, so they tune as such. Imagine China has a 1.4 billion population, and this definitely dwarves whatever small percentage of niche hardcore audiophiles we have in the rest of the world.

Anyway, the CHIFI companies use the term "毒音" AKA "musical poison" AKA "female poison" to describe this boosted upper mids/lower treble. Some in the West may find this tuning fatiguing and thin (I'm one of those), and you can argue some CHIFI cheat by using "fake clarity" here to trick listeners that their IEM is more resolving. I guess it also depends on your preferred music genres, ear anatomy and hearing health.

But whenever I see "female poison" in the shopping listing, I run far away haha.

 

[Kyonnie]

I spoke to some reps at audio shows before, and gave my feedback about this. Apparently, the CHIFI reps say the Western market is not their main market for sales. Apparently the mainland Chinese market and nearby Japan/Korea prefer brighter tunings and generate way more sales, so they tune as such. Imagine China has a 1.4 billion population, and this definitely dwarves whatever small percentage of niche hardcore audiophiles we have in the rest of the world.

Anyway, the CHIFI companies use the term "毒音" AKA "musical poison" AKA "female poison" to describe this boosted upper mids/lower treble. Some in the West may find this tuning fatiguing and thin (I'm one of those), and you can argue some CHIFI cheat by using "fake clarity" here to trick listeners that their IEM is more resolving. I guess it also depends on your preferred music genres, ear anatomy and hearing health.

But whenever I see "female poison" in the shopping listing, I run far away haha.

So true! most of my friends prefer boosted bass and highs basically Vshape lol my personal preference is more on the neutral side but with slight boost on both ends

 

[zenki]

(Cable discussion, feel free to skip this!)

This is always a touchy subject so I’ll begin by making clear that have seen many of your posts and have respect for your knowledge and experience.

Initially I also had the “cables don’t affect sound” attitude. Early in the hobby, I bought some cheap NiceHCK cables for the looks and was pleased that there seemed to be a slight improvement in sound over the stock cables I had been using. I didn’t think much about it until got a more serious cable bundled with the Venture Electronics Azure. There was no doubt that it sounded crisper and clearer. Since then I have experimented a lot with cables, though I have never bought really expensive ones. The following is based on my experience, as well as my training as a (former) experimental physicist.

There are a few things I’d like to unpick with the myths and realities of cables because there is way too much disagreement on this subject, and it really is not healthy for the community.

First, few would argue that a badly made cable of very inferior components does make everything sound worse. Once you have a cable that is made to an acceptable standard, you are more-or-less hearing the IEM as intended. Hopefully we agree at this point.

Most who have listened to a cheap silver cable and compared it to standard copper cable hear a difference, with the silver being thinner and brighter and the copper being relatively warm. This can be tested with $20 cables. Materials do have an effect, though what effect, how much of an effect, and whether there is any point in using anything beyond a basic cable is debatable.

At this point is should mention the snake oil. We have all seen wild claims that try to justify high prices. I make no arguments that a cable forged of dwarf-mined copper in the heat of Mount Doom and sprinkled with diamond dust will do anything for your audio setup! Let’s keep the discussion to the less wacky end of the market.

After-market cables are mostly of 2 types: upgraded cables with supposedly ever better materials and construction, and tuning cables designed to change the sound.

Upgrade cables seem to use ever more refined materials to make the cable as transparent as possible. Whether this is worth doing is a matter of personal taste, and the effects depend very much on the gear you are using. As with most things in this hobby, diminishing returns kick in fast, and you will get a lot more of an improvement going from a bad KZ stock cable to a well made $15 cable than you will when you go from that $15 dollar cable to a $50 cable.

Tuning cables are a different matter. They deliberately use materials and construction tricks to change the sound. Essentially it is a passive EQ. I use a cheap NiceHCK BlackCat to boost mids on my BL03 as I found the mid scoop too deep. My EPZ Q1 has a cheap silver cable that cuts through the muddiness of that IEM. Most IEMs don’t need such alteration, and it can often be done by other means (tips, filters, electronic EQ). But cable tuning is a thing, whether or not you wish to use it.

Digital signals are independent of the cable material, but the analogue signals that carry music into our IEMs are subject to frequency dependent effects from the medium through which they pass.

The point of this excessively long post? Please don’t simply discount cables as pointless. You don’t need to bother with them, but that doesn’t meant they don’t affect sound.

This is not intended as an attack on anyone. Quite the opposite. Just as our community has people who like EQ, or who buy flagship level gear, or purchase based on cosmetics more than sound, there are some who like to explore the sound effects of cabling. That doesn’t make us crazy or stupid. Ignore it or embrace it, please enjoy the audiophile hobby in whatever way works for you.

My thoughts exactly.
At the start I also thought cable changing is hogwash, but not anymore.