GearMe
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2013
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And what if 1000 people think it's not louder or too loud?
It's 10x TOO FRICKIN' LOUD!!!
(or not)
Last edited:
And what if 1000 people think it's not louder or too loud?
I am hardly the only person on Earth bothered by excessively loud music or other content.
Nothing at all (wrong with me). Because if there was, there would also be something wrong with my wife, and any guests we have had over, listening with us.
And what if 1000 people think it's not louder or too loud?
It must be scientific fact because my wife is the same!
And there are some kinds of music that actually benefit from compression.
typical measurements are going to quantify a specific variable under specific conditions, so if you measure say THD in a given frequency range while using a given source at a given listening level, you can usually tell that one headphone is doing better for that variable than another one. but even with something that simple, let's say both headphones have very similar total amount of distortions but one has more second order harmonics while the other has more third order. then what? unless we predefined that for example between even and odd harmonics, one is less objectionable to the listener, we have no simple way to decide which is objectively better. and then at a different listening level or with another amp, the result will probably change a good deal confirming one headphone's superiority, or just showing how loud each can go before struggling.Head-Fiers, I have a question for you.
On the subreddit /r/headphones, they like to mock head-fiers (and audiophiles in general) for believing in sound improvements that "can't be scientifically proven". Now, I know of measurements, and I know of THD measuerments etc.
If we agree that measurements by and large tell you about the headphones balance and linearity, and that a low THD number is an objectively good thing, can we also agree that most reasonably made headphones score well here, objectively speaking?
So then, my question becomes - How can you "prove" objectively that a Stax headphone has more clarity and detail, and a faster transient response than say a Philips SHP9500? Can someone prove that to me?
Obviously I've heard electrostats and the philips, and I know that the stax are much better. But how can you prove it? How can you even prove scientifically that there is a difference between the sound quality of a Stax SR-009 and ATH-M50s beyond their differing measurements, that tells you nothing about soundstage, timbre etc.. ?
I am asking because it seems that a lot of people, especially on reddit, has gotten this bizarre notion that everything and anything can be proven. As far as I can tell, there is very little science behind headphones, and it seems to be very much an art. This also goes for amplifiers and DACs. How can you prove that one amplifier is better than the other? You can't right, so does that mean there is no difference? Again, I am assuming nothing horribly badly made, cheap or broken. I am assuming competently built stuff.
Head-Fiers, I have a question for you.
On the subreddit /r/headphones, they like to mock head-fiers (and audiophiles in general) for believing in sound improvements that "can't be scientifically proven". Now, I know of measurements, and I know of THD measuerments etc.
If we agree that measurements by and large tell you about the headphones balance and linearity, and that a low THD number is an objectively good thing, can we also agree that most reasonably made headphones score well here, objectively speaking?
So then, my question becomes - How can you "prove" objectively that a Stax headphone has more clarity and detail, and a faster transient response than say a Philips SHP9500? Can someone prove that to me?
Obviously I've heard electrostats and the philips, and I know that the stax are much better. But how can you prove it? How can you even prove scientifically that there is a difference between the sound quality of a Stax SR-009 and ATH-M50s beyond their differing measurements, that tells you nothing about soundstage, timbre etc.. ?
I am asking because it seems that a lot of people, especially on reddit, has gotten this bizarre notion that everything and anything can be proven. As far as I can tell, there is very little science behind headphones, and it seems to be very much an art. This also goes for amplifiers and DACs. How can you prove that one amplifier is better than the other? You can't right, so does that mean there is no difference? Again, I am assuming nothing horribly badly made, cheap or broken. I am assuming competently built stuff.
In the case of DACs...
If you actually look at a variety of measurements you will see that DACs measure quite differently in a variety of ways.
Name ANY two DACs and you will have little difficulty finding obvious and easily measurable differences between them.
(The arguments start when people start insisting that this or that difference should be ignored "because it can't possibly be audible".)
listen to the original release of Rage Against
the Machine and then the remastered version, both are
on spotify.
@KeithEmo
@castleofargh
Thank you for the great replies. I am in over my head on a strictly technical level here, so if what I am saying doesn't make too much sense.. then thats why.
My first question is, how do we know that blind testing, ab/x etc is the correct way of finding out about what is factually right in terms of sound? I've never tried to blind test anything, but I predict it would be very difficult for me to hear the differences on a variety of equipment.. Because I am used to always use my hearing in conjunction with my other senses. I think we can all agree that all headphones in a given category is relatively similar to each other when we consider all sources of sound we have ever been subjected to in our lifetime. So it makes sense that it is very difficult to distinguish one thing from another in a blind test where we don't readily understand the source of the sound beyond it being headphones. Or the differences being in a hidden box, as with testing DACs and amps.
But clearly, there exist consensus on a lot of things in the headphone world.. Now I know that parroting is very prevalent in the audio community.. Its one of my biggest pet peeves, in fact. People often just parrot what they've heard about a piece of given equipment. But even still, there is consensus on a lot of things. For instance, the HD800 has a big soundstage. Or TH 900 has a hot treble. Or the LCD 2 has a lot of body. So clearly people somehow generally come to the same conclusion about a lot of equipment. Those same people, in a blind test, likely would not be able to discern these qualities out of the headphones unless they knew they would be using those headphones, and actively look for those qualities. Lets say you took a group of people and had them blind test the th 900, lcd2, hd800 - none of them had ever heard those headphones.. And lets say you took 500 people who underwent that test. Would they give us those characteristics? I would be surprised if they did that. Hell many would probably have issues hearing any significant difference! If that were the case, and the results showed that the differences were small, would that mean the TH 900 doesn't actually have a hot treble, the HD 800 doesn't actually have a wide soundstage, and the LCD 2 doesn't actually have a lot of body?
I am just thinking out loud here, to me blind testing doesn't sound intuitively right to me.
As for bright given an impression of detail.. Well, what is an impression of detail? My thinking is that the HD 800 isn't more detailed than the 007s, however they are clearly brighter to my ears. And wouldnt detail just be how much detail you could hear, not how loud it is relative to the other sounds - obviously if you can't hear the details because its drowned out, then its not a detailed headphone.. Which is why the LCD 2 to my ears would be more detailed than the th 900... Because its more even in FR and thus there is more space for details if that makes sense.
My question is basically.. What is the difference between impression of details vs details.. ?
I am sorry if I sound very dumb, as I said I am in way over my head here.
Hate to break it to you guys, but music these days is definitely recorded with a higher overall volume than in decades past.
how do we know that blind testing, ab/x etc is the correct way of finding out about what is factually right in terms of sound?
about the changes and difficulties of doing a blind test, you're right that it can feel difficult, or even a very poor way to test something. because we will often seem to do poorly compared to all the stuff we noticed in a sighted impression. but that's perfectly normal and only revealing how much of our impressions isn't just sound. if I was to make a crude comparison, it would be similar to testing our sense of balance by standing on one foot with our eyes closed or with our eyes open. the difference is pretty radical because we rely so much on what we see to correct our balance. while our actual sense of balance from the stuff in our ears, that sense isn't very impressive on its own. just because we get discomfort for doing things with fewer senses than we usually have, doesn't mean that the test doesn't work properly for the specific sense being tested. on the contrary, it might be the only time when we're really relying on it fully because for once, it's all we have.@KeithEmo
@castleofargh
Thank you for the great replies. I am in over my head on a strictly technical level here, so if what I am saying doesn't make too much sense.. then thats why.
My first question is, how do we know that blind testing, ab/x etc is the correct way of finding out about what is factually right in terms of sound? I've never tried to blind test anything, but I predict it would be very difficult for me to hear the differences on a variety of equipment.. Because I am used to always use my hearing in conjunction with my other senses. I think we can all agree that all headphones in a given category is relatively similar to each other when we consider all sources of sound we have ever been subjected to in our lifetime. So it makes sense that it is very difficult to distinguish one thing from another in a blind test where we don't readily understand the source of the sound beyond it being headphones. Or the differences being in a hidden box, as with testing DACs and amps.
But clearly, there exist consensus on a lot of things in the headphone world.. Now I know that parroting is very prevalent in the audio community.. Its one of my biggest pet peeves, in fact. People often just parrot what they've heard about a piece of given equipment. But even still, there is consensus on a lot of things. For instance, the HD800 has a big soundstage. Or TH 900 has a hot treble. Or the LCD 2 has a lot of body. So clearly people somehow generally come to the same conclusion about a lot of equipment. Those same people, in a blind test, likely would not be able to discern these qualities out of the headphones unless they knew they would be using those headphones, and actively look for those qualities. Lets say you took a group of people and had them blind test the th 900, lcd2, hd800 - none of them had ever heard those headphones.. And lets say you took 500 people who underwent that test. Would they give us those characteristics? I would be surprised if they did that. Hell many would probably have issues hearing any significant difference! If that were the case, and the results showed that the differences were small, would that mean the TH 900 doesn't actually have a hot treble, the HD 800 doesn't actually have a wide soundstage, and the LCD 2 doesn't actually have a lot of body?
I am just thinking out loud here, to me blind testing doesn't sound intuitively right to me.
As for bright given an impression of detail.. Well, what is an impression of detail? My thinking is that the HD 800 isn't more detailed than the 007s, however they are clearly brighter to my ears. And wouldnt detail just be how much detail you could hear, not how loud it is relative to the other sounds - obviously if you can't hear the details because its drowned out, then its not a detailed headphone.. Which is why the LCD 2 to my ears would be more detailed than the th 900... Because its more even in FR and thus there is more space for details if that makes sense.
My question is basically.. What is the difference between impression of details vs details.. ?
I am sorry if I sound very dumb, as I said I am in way over my head here.