Testing audiophile claims and myths
Mar 11, 2020 at 9:11 AM Post #13,741 of 17,336
I'm honestly really confused regarding cables. Personally, I cannot hear any significant differences between cables. I did blind tests with different kinds of cables and I could not reliably tell if it's even the same cable or not. I heard very tiny differences, but that could've been my imagination.
Which is more or less in line with the stuff posted on the first page of this thread.

But I keep reading about huge differences, like this text here from this forum:

"Very "musical" cable. And lightens and tightens the mid-bass. At the sametime bass gets lots of authority. And more slam. Mids are very beautiful and airy. Very natural, clean and warm highs.
Sound is much larger also, and very well organized."

How does a cable do that? I love good sound but am no "audiophile" and don't have deep technical knowledge in this area.

What am I missing, I cannot make sense of it. So far cables have just been about looks and convenience for me.
 
Mar 11, 2020 at 11:11 AM Post #13,742 of 17,336
You're not missing anything apart from BS Marketing aimed at Audiophiles. I lost consiousness briefly at the description of the cable as "Musical". You'll also notice that everything is positive about the cable. Noone wants to spend lots of money on a cable and admit it changes nothing.

Audiophile logic : If it costs more it is better. In reality, not so much.

Trust what you've tested, not what you've read.
 
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Mar 11, 2020 at 11:21 AM Post #13,743 of 17,336
You're not missing anything apart from BS Marketing aimed at Audiophiles. I lost consiousness briefly at the description of the cable as "Musical". You'll also notice that everything is positive about the cable. Noone wants to spend lots of money on a cable and admit it changes nothing.

Audiophile logic : If it costs more it is better. In reality, not so much.

Trust what you've tested, not what you've read.

Makes sense, I've never read that an expensive cable makes the sound worse. But man, this forum is full of people raving about how cables improve and drastically changes the sound, especially in the IEM forums. This is crazy.

I have a hard time understanding why people are spending hundreds of dollars on cables for slight changes - if any - if you can simply EQ, get way more significant results, can change it any time and adjust it to your liking.
 
Mar 11, 2020 at 11:29 AM Post #13,744 of 17,336
I have a hard time understanding why people are spending hundreds of dollars on cables for slight changes - if any

Tonnes of reasons that probably have nothing to do with Music. Peer approval, one upmanship, filling holes in their lives, having the latest thing etc. There's a lot to be said about being happy with what you've got. I spend tonnes on Music and not very much on gear but hey, that's just me. The only thing I've tested is Music formats (thanks to the peeps in SS) which revealed a lot to me.
 
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Mar 11, 2020 at 8:12 PM Post #13,745 of 17,336
Makes sense, I've never read that an expensive cable makes the sound worse. But man, this forum is full of people raving about how cables improve and drastically changes the sound, especially in the IEM forums. This is crazy.

I have a hard time understanding why people are spending hundreds of dollars on cables for slight changes - if any - if you can simply EQ, get way more significant results, can change it any time and adjust it to your liking.

Placebo is extremely powerful. We’re all subject to it, even if we’re totally aware of it.
 
Mar 11, 2020 at 8:30 PM Post #13,746 of 17,336
Placebo is extremely powerful. We’re all subject to it, even if we’re totally aware of it.
The placebo effect is real; observed in drug testing and needs to be carefully factored out there.

I believe that my differently coloured cables can sound different and they do sound different to me, as far as my imagination can bring me.

(At the same time, it is harder for me to believe in an acoustic effect of different platings given my knowledge of materials science, but I do enjoy psychoacoustic effects of colours in cables))
 
Mar 12, 2020 at 3:49 AM Post #13,747 of 17,336
A cable can either pass signal faithfully or it can degrade it. It can’t improve it. A cable either works or it doesn’t.
 
Mar 12, 2020 at 4:07 AM Post #13,748 of 17,336
I sort of can't believe I'm writing yet another cable post.

If a cable's task is to deliver a signal from a source to a destination without changing it, then most cables should not, and cannot have an audible impact. However, in the real world, cables all have a set of electrical properties that are all degenerative to the signal being carried. In typical cable applications those degenerative effects are far, far too small to be audible (many occurring way above the audible frequency range), and may be quite difficult to measure. Other electrical properties don't have an impact until they make up a significant part of the total electrical circuit. This can happen with speaker cables, but pretty much never with interconnects.

The speaker cable scenario is that if a speaker presents a frequency variable load (i.e. not 8 ohms at all frequencies, rather peaking at 18 ohms, dipping to 3), AND the cable presents a significant resistance or complex impedance, then the result will be a variance in frequency response of the speaker. This happens if the cable gage is too small, or the cable is too long, or both. The effect can be audible and measurable. Again, this only happens when the cable's properties become a significant factor in the total circuit, and that only happens in the consumer audio world with amps and speakers. A speaker's impedance is low. If a cable's impedance is 10% or greater than the value of that load, you have a frequency-variable voltage divider.

Every other interconnect uses a voltage transmission system, where virtually zero power is being passed through the cable, being driven from a moderately low source impedance, and very lightly loaded at the destination. And in consumer audio cables are generally quite short. Extremely long cable runs would obviously compound any negative electrical properties, and would at some point become audible. For example, a 2 mile telephone wire has very significant high frequency loss, often approaching 12-15dB at 15kHz. So, don't run 2 miles of phone wire in your system.

The question is: If cable electrical properties are always degenerative, how can a cable ever improve anything?
The answer is: If the total system has a particular characteristic, such as a rising high end, that is not favorable, AND a particular cable's properties counteract that characteristic, then the degenerative effect is perceived as positive. These combinations are quite rare, though, and mostly, cables don't change a thing audibly. But since it's impossible for most consumers to do any sort of controlled ABX test on cables of any kind, the "tests" are sighted, and highly biased. As a result, nobody hears a negative effect with more expensive cable, often a positive effect because the cable looks and feels "better", and costs more.

The other fact to keep in mind is that some exotic cables have more than cable built into them. They have impedance-modifying components hidden in the connectors, or in the "mystery blob" in the cable. That's cheating, in so many ways.

If the system requires some form of performance modification, there are far better, more controlled ways to get there. The random cable combination stands little chance of changing anything, and even less of actually being beneficial.

Just to keep it real, I'll say that some really cheap interconnects actually are, well, a bit too cheap. They may fail from minimal use, some connectors are pretty terrible, and some interconnects aren't even made with shielded cable. Yeah, they still work fine most of the time, but if you need shielding, you won't have it.

Might as well hit one are where cable can easily have an impact: the cable from a tone arm to a phono preamp. Moving magnet cartridges "expect" a 47K ohm resistive load, but also expect a certain amount of capacitance, made up of the input capacitance of the preamp AND the capacitance of the cable, which may not be insignificant. Changes in capacitive load can significantly alter frequency response. But that's a whole deep subject, the short answer is, you have to fully test the system anyway to get it right.

It's still not a bad idea to use good cables, but good doesn't have to be expensive. And with very few exceptions, no cable will change the signal it carries. The few that do can't be expected to offer a positive change in any but the most rare and specific cases.
 
Mar 12, 2020 at 4:13 AM Post #13,749 of 17,336
I sort of can't believe I'm writing yet another cable post.

If a cable's task is to deliver a signal from a source to a destination without changing it, then most cables should not, and cannot have an audible impact. However, in the real world, cables all have a set of electrical properties that are all degenerative to the signal being carried. In typical cable applications those degenerative effects are far, far too small to be audible (many occurring way above the audible frequency range), and may be quite difficult to measure. Other electrical properties don't have an impact until they make up a significant part of the total electrical circuit. This can happen with speaker cables, but pretty much never with interconnects.

The speaker cable scenario is that if a speaker presents a frequency variable load (i.e. not 8 ohms at all frequencies, rather peaking at 18 ohms, dipping to 3), AND the cable presents a significant resistance or complex impedance, then the result will be a variance in frequency response of the speaker. This happens if the cable gage is too small, or the cable is too long, or both. The effect can be audible and measurable. Again, this only happens when the cable's properties become a significant factor in the total circuit, and that only happens in the consumer audio world with amps and speakers. A speaker's impedance is low. If a cable's impedance is 10% or greater than the value of that load, you have a frequency-variable voltage divider.

Every other interconnect uses a voltage transmission system, where virtually zero power is being passed through the cable, being driven from a moderately low source impedance, and very lightly loaded at the destination. And in consumer audio cables are generally quite short. Extremely long cable runs would obviously compound any negative electrical properties, and would at some point become audible. For example, a 2 mile telephone wire has very significant high frequency loss, often approaching 12-15dB at 15kHz. So, don't run 2 miles of phone wire in your system.

The question is: If cable electrical properties are always degenerative, how can a cable ever improve anything?
The answer is: If the total system has a particular characteristic, such as a rising high end, that is not favorable, AND a particular cable's properties counteract that characteristic, then the degenerative effect is perceived as positive. These combinations are quite rare, though, and mostly, cables don't change a thing audibly. But since it's impossible for most consumers to do any sort of controlled ABX test on cables of any kind, the "tests" are sighted, and highly biased. As a result, nobody hears a negative effect with more expensive cable, often a positive effect because the cable looks and feels "better", and costs more.

The other fact to keep in mind is that some exotic cables have more than cable built into them. They have impedance-modifying components hidden in the connectors, or in the "mystery blob" in the cable. That's cheating, in so many ways.

If the system requires some form of performance modification, there are far better, more controlled ways to get there. The random cable combination stands little chance of changing anything, and even less of actually being beneficial.

Just to keep it real, I'll say that some really cheap interconnects actually are, well, a bit too cheap. They may fail from minimal use, some connectors are pretty terrible, and some interconnects aren't even made with shielded cable. Yeah, they still work fine most of the time, but if you need shielding, you won't have it.

Might as well hit one are where cable can easily have an impact: the cable from a tone arm to a phono preamp. Moving magnet cartridges "expect" a 47K ohm resistive load, but also expect a certain amount of capacitance, made up of the input capacitance of the preamp AND the capacitance of the cable, which may not be insignificant. Changes in capacitive load can significantly alter frequency response. But that's a whole deep subject, the short answer is, you have to fully test the system anyway to get it right.

It's still not a bad idea to use good cables, but good doesn't have to be expensive. And with very few exceptions, no cable will change the signal it carries. The few that do can't be expected to offer a positive change in any but the most rare and specific cases.

Thanks for the informative post, helps me understand the topic more.
 
Mar 17, 2020 at 10:33 PM Post #13,751 of 17,336
That would be a matter of impedance. What's the sensitivity and impedance ratings for your headphone and what impedance is your amp designed for? There's a thread on impedance that is pinned at the top of Sound Science. That would be the place to check and post any questions on this.
 
Mar 19, 2020 at 5:21 AM Post #13,752 of 17,336
One question that people rarely address in threads like these: how different are electrostatic amps ("energizers")? I've been told I definitely should not even bother to try an SR-007 with my SRM-006t tube amp. bull or no?

This one isn't an audiophile myth! Electrostatic headphones (and speakers) operate on a different principle to electrodynamic headphones (and speakers), they require relatively low current and relatively high voltage. The peak voltage output of amplifiers for dynamic headphones ranges from around 1.8v in some portable devices (some mobile phones for example), up to around 24v in the higher (mains) powered HP amps. Electrostatic HPs on the other hand can require peak voltages up to around 1,000v.

So either you need an amp specifically designed for electrostatic HPs or a standard amp for dynamic HPs plus a transformer. The situation is further complicated by the fact that different makes/models of electrostatic HPs can have very different peak voltage requirements. Some may require 100v and others up to 1,000v. So, it's much easier to match the optimal peak voltage requirements of a particular set of electrostatic HPs with an amp designed specifically for that model of electrostatic HPs than it is with a standard, dynamic HP amp and a transformer. Unlike with many audiophile myths, the difference between a standard dynamic HP amp plus transformer and an amp specifically designed for a particular model of electrostatic HP can be significant enough to be audible.

If @pinnahertz notices your question, he can give a more exacting and detailed response than me.

G
 
Mar 19, 2020 at 9:45 AM Post #13,753 of 17,336
Oh, I should have been clearer, the question/possible myth isn't whether electrostatic headphones do need a special kind of amplifier — but whether the choice within that range of amplifiers makes a dramatic difference on how the electrostatic headphone sounds.
 
Mar 19, 2020 at 12:47 PM Post #13,754 of 17,336
Electrostatic headphones are about as non-standard as you can get. I can imagine that even within the different makes and models, there is a range of required amp characteristics. I suspect it's a matter of designing a set of headphones that only works with your own brand of amp to guarantee a multiple sale.
 
Mar 20, 2020 at 5:16 AM Post #13,755 of 17,336
One question that people rarely address in threads like these: how different are electrostatic amps ("energizers")? I've been told I definitely should not even bother to try an SR-007 with my SRM-006t tube amp. bull or no?
Answered the same question you posted in the other thread.

But you've been told...what, exactly? Definitely don't even bother? It will totally screw up the sound? So you want a second opinion before..what..trying the experiment anyway? If you have both drivers, just try them. Nothing will break so long as Stax didn't change the connector. The specs on the driver isn't that different from the recommended unit. Same polarizing voltage, same drive voltage, approximately the same maximums. Headphones are a bridging load to the driver/energizer.

Electrostatic headphones and drivers are something I've always considered a closed system. There's a reason Stax recommends and sells drivers and headphones together. If you want different sound, pick different headphones, or apply some real EQ that you can document, adjust, save, and recall. At least your quest, whatever it is, would move forward more than asking for second opinions here.

But since you asked....I've given Stax electrostats more than a fair shot. I only sort of liked the Lambdas. Sort of. They had some nice qualities, and some not as nice. Certainly not a total package I would consider worth the investment. The other models were just unlistenable, and no driver/energizer would fix that. Unless they've worked some magic in the last couple decades, my interest remains lost. I sold off my last pair years ago. You asked.
 

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