Testing audiophile claims and myths
Apr 8, 2015 at 2:45 PM Post #4,231 of 17,336
Agreed. Yours and your dealer's attitude don't actually inspire much confidence that the ABX protocol will be followed.
That will be interesting. If you and the dealer find there is a difference in ABX testing, if you would like to prove it to others, maybe the way to go is to have the dealer open up a thread here on Head-Fi for sharing a CD mat. Let various head-fi members use it and pass it on to other members. Or, since the CD mat is so expensive, see if Innerfidelity or Audioholics would review it and make such files available for download.

OK - one morning or afternoon needlessly thrown away less - I like it. Would be put to better use.
 
Just for the record - the mat I use and will be used for rips is this one : 
 
http://www.ebay.de/itm/CD-Matte-BLACK-DIAMOND-High-Tech-Kohlefaser-/361259778725?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item541cc2c2a5
 
I do not have that 239$ mat, I only commented it should have the advantage of keeping the disc electrostatic charge free for the duration of the playback - something that is not achievable by other means and, at least in my experience, proved to be at the very least plausible. The main purpose of the CD mat is to damp out any vibrations that occur simply trough spinning - plus whatever acoustic pickup from the loudspeakers. This function will be performed by any carbon fibre mat/disc which is sufficiently thin for the clamping mechanism of the CD player still working as intended.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 3:03 PM Post #4,232 of 17,336
  We can always count on you for BS and going out of context. Super sensitive IEMs are totally out of context so I have no idea why you even brought that up.. I already brought up the misused example of the HE-6,so you had to find another. Very few headphones need gobs of power and most people will never ever need much.
Nothing is recorded and distributed as playable product that has the DR you're going on about. You can imagine that all you want but it ain't happening.
Try to stay in context.

And I can always count on your BS, too.
 
I wanted to present that each one needs power exactly enough - or a bit headroom - for his or hers actual headphones - not Imaginary Average Headphone. And used two extremes to illustrate that point.
 
You generally can not power supersensitive IEMs and inefficient orthos with the same amp - because the requirements are vastly different. There are few extremely rare exceptions, but let's keep it at that. 
 
Now go and check some releases of Telarc and Reference recordings of classical music and see if they do not approach or exceed DR I mentioned.  Certainly they do exceed 60 dB DR. 
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 3:06 PM Post #4,233 of 17,336
If you need 120 dB SPL capability depends on the intended use of the headphones. All I can say is that any audiophile *****footing regarding loudness/dynamic range/bass was shattered the moment I tried to monitor grand piano with headphones that are otherwise audiophile darling. At the same level as piano heard live.

Basically, they distorted and bottomed in lower octaves - big time. Could not possibly match the piano heard live - even given infinite power. And I was listening a few metres away from the piano, not at the piano.

If your overconcern for hearing safety was right, all pianists would have gone deaf before general public would ever notice them.   The 120 dB peaks exist in acoustic music, but are over so quick that we do not perceive them as loud. It can be as brief as few miliseconds - but you would hear it if it was clipped or compressed.


Why does this matter to someone using commercial recordings?

You speak as if the concerns you face when monitoring or making your own recordings should be relevant to everyone.

In case my point is not clear: I dont get distortion or clipping when listening to piano. Why does it matter if you?
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 3:10 PM Post #4,234 of 17,336
  And I can always count on your BS, too.
 
I wanted to present that each one needs power exactly enough - or a bit headroom - for his or hers actual headphones - not Imaginary Average Headphone. And used two extremes to illustrate that point.
 
You generally can not power supersensitive IEMs and inefficient orthos with the same amp - because the requirements are vastly different. There are few extremely rare exceptions, but let's keep it at that. 
 
Now go and check some releases of Telarc and Reference recordings of classical music and see if they do not approach or exceed DR I mentioned.  Certainly they do exceed 60 dB DR. 

The point is about people claiming to need far more power than necessary for a particular set of headphones and having some magical belief that they will gain SQ/scale from it. Many amps have sensitivity switches and are low enough in noise to use with both orthos as well as sensitive IEMs. If that is one's requirement then it is readily available or they can get two amps. Some esoteric releases that nobody is interested in has little value and I would doubt that your claims of DR are real.
I know it must be difficult for you but try to stay in context. Try not to get into tangents.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 3:31 PM Post #4,235 of 17,336
  Now go and check some releases of Telarc and Reference recordings of classical music and see if they do not approach or exceed DR I mentioned.  Certainly they do exceed 60 dB DR. 

 
The lowest I've seen RMS go is between -70 and -65dB (peak normalized to 0dBFS), and I have lots of Telarc and RR recordings. That's certainly well below 60 but not really pushing Redbook yet.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 4:03 PM Post #4,236 of 17,336
So lets look at the HE-500 Planar Magnetic.
Impedance: 38 Ohms.
Sensitivity: 89 dB/mW
 
1W will bring it to 119 dBSPL. That means 2W will bring it to 122 dB SPL. Yet some people claim it must have 4 or 6 watts. 6W will take it to almost 127 dBSPL. In all practicality, 1W will do perfectly fine and most people will never even need that much as most people listen to music that has a fair degree of compression or volume limiting baked into the recording. Yet there is always someone preaching more wattage and gets newbies to spend money that would be best used elsewhere.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 4:23 PM Post #4,237 of 17,336
Is the need for power though always related to volume or spl? It would seem if power was the only part of the equation than all amps would sound the same which is clearly not the case. Can increased power benefit in other ways outside of volume? Such as could it require or indicate higher quality caps or components?
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 4:25 PM Post #4,238 of 17,336
Why does this matter to someone using commercial recordings?

You speak as if the concerns you face when monitoring or making your own recordings should be relevant to everyone.

It does not. I did say that capability to reach 120 dB depends on intended use - merely stated which is it.
 
As there are cars for getting from A to B at the minimum possible cost, there are cars that aspire for the ultimate performance. 
 
But if the public road system is being kept so low to support nothing but 90 km/h ( an approx equivalent of CD redbook ), limited in curvature of the bends, inclination, you name it - things become boring. I am not saying breaking the sound barrier belongs on the public road - nor does driving a Ferrari to its limits. For that, there are tracks - natural flats that allow it or man made circuits where such activity at least poses no danger to others.
 
Music is different. It does have its range - in dynamics, in frequency response - which has not yet been reached by any recording. And here it is deliberately cutting corners being made specifically to accommodate certain recording format. Cut this, filter that, etc - until it "fits" into CD redbook.
 
Every one decides which music is to his/hers liking, played at level and dynamic range of choice. No one is forcing one to do anything. But I find the opposite side who considers itself a governing body what should and not should be done a bit too much.  There is more than enough such people already - so much and stuck in each and every pore of the System that is really painful.
 
Painful to hear one of the last living and still active pupils of Rubinstein (a pianist of course ), whose eyes started to sparkle listening to my recording of his recital. His first remark, obviously startled, was : "How well did you capture the quiet and loud parts - never heard my playing recorded like that !" The man is now in his late 60-s ... - and about half of his mastery of the command of the piano simply does not come trough on his official CDs.
 
Sorry, not gona happen using conventional thinking, conventional equipment , conventional limiting of each and everyone who does not want to conform and be in the comfort zone of the masses. And extraordinary musicians like this pianist will never get a recording that will do his lifelong endeavour justice.
 
I never said each and everyone should aspire to the same goals as mine.  But I have always respected a sales clerk who takes the time and trouble to show the prospective customer the whole range - not just up to the level 
the clerk has judged the customer on the basis of the customer's clothes etc.  Even if the customer bought in the end the most bottom of the line product, that clerk has made a customer - for life. And that satisfied customer will return once financially more fit. And again. And again. Ultimately, ending buying near or at TOTL level.
 
As regards your question why does it matter if you do not get clipping on piano and I do : first, the recording is certainly different. Second, lifelike dynamic range is more demanding than to what commercial recordings have decided to limit themselves - compression of one way or another is at play. Chances are your headphones/amp driving them to clip are certainly higher with my recording - because it is left intact.  Just as you will not go deaf from listening to piano live, you are not going to go deaf listening to my recording using headphones or speakers capable of lifelike loudness and dynamic range without excessive distortion.
 
One compressed recording sounds like recording - one non compressed recording has a good foundation to start sounding like real music. If not hampered by the playback equipment.
 
Clear enough ?
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 4:44 PM Post #4,239 of 17,336
   
The lowest I've seen RMS go is between -70 and -65dB (peak normalized to 0dBFS), and I have lots of Telarc and RR recordings. That's certainly well below 60 but not really pushing Redbook yet.

That is about normal.
 
One thing regarding dynamic range is bothering me for some time now. It has to do with the resolution at the quiet levels.
 
There are recordings that on meter do not record particularly high DR readings - but sound much more dynamic than DR reading suggests. Has anybody access to the US Navy study during WW II where it was allegedly shown how high negative signal to noise still allows for the positive identification of orders over radio - you read it right, how quieter can speech be compared to to the inherent noise of the radio transmission in order to be still intelligible, even if for the basic military commands.
 
This is particularly relevant for analog recordings which, despite being marred by tape noise/hiss, do not "die" below noise and there is intelligible information below tape noise. 
 
Please note I heave heard/read about this - looooooong ago. I do not state this a a fact, but as a possibility.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 4:50 PM Post #4,240 of 17,336
  Is the need for power though always related to volume or spl? It would seem if power was the only part of the equation than all amps would sound the same which is clearly not the case. Can increased power benefit in other ways outside of volume? Such as could it require or indicate higher quality caps or components?

A good amp, of which there are many, delivers its specified power cleanly. Having more is of no value. Yes you can find some junk out there that distorts noticeably at the higher end of its range of power, but that is the realm of junk products and of no interest to us. There is no advantage or benefit of having excess power that is never tapped. Passing power through certain types of caps will introduce nonlinearities (distortion). This can be avoided by using large value quality caps, or even better, DC coupled output stages which is typical of SS amps.
If one takes two amps with distortion levels below a human's ability to perceive it is highly unlikely that one can truly ABX a difference. It is very easy to find an amp that has distortion levels well below our ability to perceive. The audio hobby is rife with rumors, myths and flash mobs parroting unsubstantiated stories. As I stated previously, we are unable to tell the difference between 0.1% THD and 0.001% THD. In fact our ability to detect THD is well above 0.1% THD. IMO we may be better at hearing IMD than THD but amps typically outperform our capabilities by a wide margin.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 4:56 PM Post #4,241 of 17,336
  That is about normal.
 
One thing regarding dynamic range is bothering me for some time now. It has to do with the resolution at the quiet levels.
 
There are recordings that on meter do not record particularly high DR readings - but sound much more dynamic than DR reading suggests. Has anybody access to the US Navy study during WW II where it was allegedly shown how high negative signal to noise still allows for the positive identification of orders over radio - you read it right, how quieter can speech be compared to to the inherent noise of the radio transmission in order to be still intelligible, even if for the basic military commands.
 
This is particularly relevant for analog recordings which, despite being marred by tape noise/hiss, do not "die" below noise and there is intelligible information below tape noise. 
 
Please note I heave heard/read about this - looooooong ago. I do not state this a a fact, but as a possibility.

Intelligible has to do with the brain processing information which is laden with noise and many times is not complete or partially masked by noise. This has nothing to do with appreciating some hypothetical recording of music that hovers above the noise floor. Buy better recordings. You seem to spend a lot of energy looking for irrelevant stories that are not in context.
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 5:19 PM Post #4,242 of 17,336
  A good amp, of which there are many, delivers its specified power cleanly. Having more is of no value. Yes you can find some junk out there that distorts noticeably at the higher end of its range of power, but that is the realm of junk products and of no interest to us. There is no advantage or benefit of having excess power that is never tapped. Passing power through certain types of caps will introduce nonlinearities (distortion). This can be avoided by using large value quality caps, or even better, DC coupled output stages which is typical of SS amps.
If one takes two amps with distortion levels below a human's ability to perceive it is highly unlikely that one can truly ABX a difference. It is very easy to find an amp that has distortion levels well below our ability to perceive. The audio hobby is rife with rumors, myths and flash mobs parroting unsubstantiated stories. As I stated previously, we are unable to tell the difference between 0.1% THD and 0.001% THD. In fact our ability to detect THD is well above 0.1% THD. IMO we may be better at hearing IMD than THD but amps typically outperform our capabilities by a wide margin.

Thanks I wasn't trying to insinuate anything or justify anything just curious as to whether there was an advantage. I have amps that go louder than I would ever want to listen and some that don't go loud enough with certain cans and I have no idea what the output of any of them are off the top of my head and even if I did it would change based on which headphone I use as the impedance are different on each. If what I listen to sounds good to me then I am happy. I have moved far from the "I use music to listen to my equipment" to the ever so much more enjoyable "I use equipment to listen to my music." For me I am pretty much at or near end stage with my set-up as I have achieved as best I can within my budget (which is currently an HD600, Beyer990, Garage1217 tube amp and Music Hall Dac/Amp and a fiio portable on the way). Much more of my efforts and $$ have gone into my HT set-up
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 5:27 PM Post #4,243 of 17,336
  The point is about people claiming to need far more power than necessary for a particular set of headphones and having some magical belief that they will gain SQ/scale from it. Many amps have sensitivity switches and are low enough in noise to use with both orthos as well as sensitive IEMs. If that is one's requirement then it is readily available or they can get two amps. Some esoteric releases that nobody is interested in has little value and I would doubt that your claims of DR are real.
I know it must be difficult for you but try to stay in context. Try not to get into tangents.

" Some esoteric releases that nobody is interested in has little value " speaks volumes of you.
 
RRod has confirmed > 60 dB DR - for the same esoteric releases nobody is interested in .
That makes us at least two - more than nobody.
 
Just because I drive "normal" or even "subnormal" car, I do not feel the need to say to those with Porsches and Ferraris and Bugattis and Koenigs that nobody is interested in such cars and that their accelerations and final speeds are doubtful to me. Despite I will most probably never travel at such speeds and accelerations.
 
Live and let live - and have some fun from time to time (even if only on YT : but I wanted to see some really badass snowmobile - that can easily beat all the above cars - from standstill to at least 100 mph ).
 

 
Apr 8, 2015 at 5:34 PM Post #4,244 of 17,336
For me I am pretty much at or near end stage with my set-up as I have achieved as best I can within my budget (which is currently an HD600, Beyer990, Garage1217 tube amp and Music Hall Dac/Amp and a fiio portable on the way). Much more of my efforts and $$ have gone into my HT set-up


That's so easy to do :dt880smile:
 
Apr 8, 2015 at 5:44 PM Post #4,245 of 17,336
  " Some esoteric releases that nobody is interested in has little value " speaks volumes of you.
 
RRod has confirmed > 60 dB DR - for the same esoteric releases nobody is interested in .
That makes us at least two - more than nobody.
 
Just because I drive "normal" or even "subnormal" car, I do not feel the need to say to those with Porsches and Ferraris and Bugattis and Koenigs that nobody is interested in such cars and that their accelerations and final speeds are doubtful to me. Despite I will most probably never travel at such speeds and accelerations.
 
Live and let live - and have some fun from time to time (even if only on YT : but I wanted to see some really badass snowmobile - that can easily beat all the above cars - from standstill to at least 100 mph ).
 

 


There you go again, another meaningless analogy. The appreciation for acceleration and enjoyment of audio are two entirely different experiences. I used to have a Mustang GT with a modified 5.0L V8 that put out 400 HP. The Holley 4BBL carb was so big that if someone fell into it they would never be found again. I really enjoyed the acceleration and heel toeing through the corners but had to be careful not to terrorize my passengers. This has nothing to do with the enjoyment of music or the topics appropriate to this thread. You keep on bringing up doubtful fringe cases that have no value.
 

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