[bigshot]

  Just because something is not comprehensible to others, this does not necessary mean it is trolling.

 
You are overpowering the discussion and shutting it down. If you aren't intending to troll, you should carefully read a few replies, not for content but for the effect you are creating, and decide if that is the effect you are trying to have on the thread. If it isn't, you might want to rethink your approach to the discussion.
 
And to the people replying, this is one of the most important threads in this forum. If you haven't read the first post in this thread, go back and read it. This thread shouldn't be locked. It would be a bloody shame if it was. Everyone should stop feeding the "incomprehensible".

 

[StanD]

How much wattage do you really need?
Let's pick the venerable HD600 for the case study.

1. 300 Ohms
2. Sensitivity of 97 dB/mW
3. 120 dBSPL requires 199.6 mW

 
Who really needs a peak over 120 dbSPL?
Do you even need that much?
A Schiit Asgard 2 can almost make it to 123 dbSPL continuous.

 

[MacacoDoSom]

   
You are overpowering the discussion and shutting it down. If you aren't intending to troll, you should carefully read a few replies, not for content but for the effect you are creating, and decide if that is the effect you are trying to have on the thread. If it isn't, you might want to rethink your approach to the discussion.
 
And to the people replying, this is one of the most important threads in this forum. If you haven't read the first post in this thread, go back and read it. This thread shouldn't be locked. It would be a bloody shame if it was. Everyone should stop feeding the "incomprehensible".

 
I think you are absolutely right, for my part I'll stop it... I will not trow any more wood to the fire! sorry... this was a really nice thread, until...

 

[MacacoDoSom]

  How much wattage do you really need?
Let's pick the venerable HD600 for the case study.

1. 300 Ohms
2. Sensitivity of 97 dB/mW
3. 120 dBSPL requires 199.6 mW

 
Who really needs a peak over 120 dbSPL?
Do you even need that much?
A Schiit Asgard 2 can almost make it to 123 dbSPL continuous.

this was about?

 

[StanD]

  this was about?

The myth about one can never have enough wattage. Or it scales with even more power. I run across this often enough on the forums.

 

[MacacoDoSom]

seriously?

 

[StanD]

  seriously?

Seriously what? You prefer mats?
There's always harping about needing wattage far beyond any possible benefit.

 

[manbear]

Seriously what? You prefer mats?
There's always harping about needing wattage far beyond any possible benefit.

+1

Someone is always harping about how "orthos need current" without ever specifying how much.

 

[jodgey4]

Well, the current thing is basically == moar power in general, because of the lower impedances of ortho models.

 

[StanD]

+1

Someone is always harping about how "orthos need current" without ever specifying how much.

Yes, that's a popular one. When I show them the math, they still insist upon it. Most people don't understand the different aspects of DR.

1. What is recorded and possible to reproduce.
2. The use of Volume Compressors and Limiters in the studio.
3. Ambient noise levels and how that figures in.
4. How much headroom does one really need?

 
Here's a link that shows common ambient noise levels. Scroll down a little.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm

 

[StanD]

  Well, the current thing is basically == moar power in general, because of the lower impedances of ortho models.

It also has to do with sensitivity as well. 1W is enough for the HE-500's, yet some people insist that it needs several watts, they typically use the HE-6 as an example in the context of all orthos.

 

[manbear]

Well, the current thing is basically == moar power in general, because of the lower impedances of ortho models.

Yes, but it just seems to me like people are more irrational about current than voltage.

The HE-6 theory makes sense.

 

[analogsurviver]

  How much wattage do you really need?
Let's pick the venerable HD600 for the case study.

1. 300 Ohms
2. Sensitivity of 97 dB/mW
3. 120 dBSPL requires 199.6 mW

 
Who really needs a peak over 120 dbSPL?
Do you even need that much?
A Schiit Asgard 2 can almost make it to 123 dbSPL continuous.

You need enough. And that can vary a lot.
 
Worst case scenario ( for headphones ) :
 
AKG K 1000
- 120 ohm
- sensitivity 73 dB/mW
- it can not take level that would push it to 120 dB , at least not in lower frequencies, even if and when amplifier is    capable of producing enough juice. Diaphragm excursion limitation - bottoming.
 
And you can have super sensitive IEMs, that are on the opposite of the power requirements. Where main concern is amp with noise low enough not to hiss.
 
Meant was the fact that it can not be generalized how much power is required - headphones are even more all over the chart than loudspeakers when it comes to powering.
 
If you need 120 dB SPL capability depends on the intended use of the headphones. All I can say is that any audiophile *****footing regarding loudness/dynamic range/bass was shattered the moment I tried to monitor grand piano with headphones that are otherwise audiophile darling. At the same level as piano heard live.
 
Basically, they distorted and bottomed in lower octaves - big time. Could not possibly match the piano heard live - even given infinite power. And I was listening a few metres away from the piano, not at the piano.
 
If your overconcern for hearing safety was right, all pianists would have gone deaf before general public would ever notice them.   The 120 dB peaks exist in acoustic music, but are over so quick that we do not perceive them as loud. It can be as brief as few miliseconds - but you would hear it if it was clipped or compressed. Anyone genuinly concerned about hearing safety should go and see the thread dedicated to it, where it is nicely revealed which levels at which durations are to be avoided. 
 
Far greater danger to hearing represent recordings with close to zero DR, playing at average 90 dB, than a high DR recording peaking at 120 dB in the duration of about one or two seconds per hour and average being around 70 dB.
 
If you worry too much regarding noise levels - an average car at say 120 km/ on motorway is approx 80 dB in the cabin - for hours. Should now all stop driving ?

 

[KeithEmo]

Exactly....
 
When I RIP a CD, my ripping software verifies the results by comparing a checksum of the actual numbers it read to one stored in a database. If the result matches the database, then my RIP is identical to RIPS of the same CD performed by several other people. It's not "sort of the same" and it won't "maybe be better if I try it a few more times". Every single number is the same. If adding a mat doesn't change the numbers, then they will still be correct (and identical); in which case they cannot sound different when I play those two files. If it changes the numbers, and I get different numbers, and my original numbers were correct, then the new and different numbers must be WRONG. And, if you compare those two files, and they are the same, then there is simply no possible reason for them to sound different - unless you believe in magic.
 
When you play a CD directly from a CD player into a DAC, the digital audio "signal" is made up of numbers and a clock. At this point both the clock and the numbers are important. If the mat were somehow capable of helping the player deliver those same numbers, but improved the quality of the clock - perhaps by reducing jitter, then it could possibly produce an audible improvement in sound. (However, if you know how the circuitry inside a CD player works, then you would understand why this is also rather unlikely.) However, this is simply not true for digital audio that is ripped to a FILE - because only the numbers are stored in the file. The clock, whether good, bad, or better, is discarded at this point, and a new one is created when the file is played.
 
Quote:

When you say "listening will leave no doubt whatsoever," you mean ABX testing? I bet not.

And yes. A disc could be played in "real time" over a digital connection to a computer, saved, and the digital signal could could be compared with and without the mat.

 
I have a proposal for you to present to your dealer... who is quite certain that there is an obvious difference...
 
You will RIP the same CD ten times, half with the mat and half without; name the file you get each time ( "01-testtrack.wav" "02-testtrack.wav" etc) and keep track of which is which in a list.
Now, give those ten files to your dealer - MINUS THE LIST, and ask him to tell you which five were done with the mat.
He can play them on whatever equipment he likes (since it's the files themselves we're comparing).
If the difference is real and obvious, he should have no trouble telling which files were done with the mat - ten times out of ten - right?
If he gets nine out of ten correct you pay him double.
If he gets less than nine out of ten right, then he gives you the mat, buys you dinner, and apologizes.

 

[StanD]

  You need enough. And that can vary a lot.
 
Worst case scenario ( for headphones ) :
 
AKG K 1000
- 120 ohm
- sensitivity 73 dB/mW
- it can not take level that would push it to 120 dB , at least not in lower frequencies, even if and when amplifier is    capable of producing enough juice. Diaphragm excursion limitation - bottoming.
 
And you can have super sensitive IEMs, that are on the opposite of the power requirements. Where main concern is amp with noise low enough not to hiss.
 
Meant was the fact that it can not be generalized how much power is required - headphones are even more all over the chart than loudspeakers when it comes to powering.
 
If you need 120 dB SPL capability depends on the intended use of the headphones. All I can say is that any audiophile *****footing regarding loudness/dynamic range/bass was shattered the moment I tried to monitor grand piano with headphones that are otherwise audiophile darling. At the same level as piano heard live.
 
Basically, they distorted and bottomed in lower octaves - big time. Could not possibly match the piano heard live - even given infinite power. And I was listening a few metres away from the piano, not at the piano.
 
If your overconcern for hearing safety was right, all pianists would have gone deaf before general public would ever notice them.   The 120 dB peaks exist in acoustic music, but are over so quick that we do not perceive them as loud. It can be as brief as few miliseconds - but you would hear it if it was clipped or compressed. Anyone genuinly concerned about hearing safety should go and see the thread dedicated to it, where it is nicely revealed which levels at which durations are to be avoided. 
 
Far greater danger to hearing represent recordings with close to zero DR, playing at average 90 dB, than a high DR recording peaking at 120 dB in the duration of about one or two seconds per hour and average being around 70 dB.
 
If you worry too much regarding noise levels - an average car at say 120 km/ on motorway is approx 80 dB in the cabin - for hours. Should now all stop driving ?

We can always count on you for BS and going out of context. Super sensitive IEMs are totally out of context so I have no idea why you even brought that up.. I already brought up the misused example of the HE-6,so you had to find another. Very few headphones need gobs of power and most people will never ever need much.
Nothing is recorded and distributed as playable product that has the DR you're going on about. You can imagine that all you want but it ain't happening.
Try to stay in context.