[bigshot]

"Soundstage" is the high end audio term for "placebo effect".

 

[Ruben123]

"Soundstage" is the high end audio term for "placebo effect".

Lol!!!

 

[charleski]

  New Q!!
 
How do you feel (some really have feelings about this topic) about using headphone amps?

 
The easiest (and probably most common) way of spoiling your listening experience is to turn up the volume enough to drive your amp into clipping. You need enough power to drive your headphones to an acceptable peak level, but more will be a waste. It's important to note that this applies to the peaks - it might be fine at the average listening level but then clip when things get louder, so this depends on the dynamic range of the music you listen to as well. Unless you only listen to heavily compressed music it's generally an idea to make sure you have something that can drive your headphone to at least 110dB with an average listening level 20-30dB below that. You could restrict yourself to only listening at much lower volumes, but the human ear's frequency response varies with volume, so music does sound different when it's quieter. Increasing the volume by 3dB requires a doubling of output power.

 
Unfortunately, the output stage is the area where it's easiest for a manufacturer to cut corners. The Clip has a very decent DAC, but can only produce 15mW into 16Ω. I'm not sure what the output of the Galaxy S1 is, but the Galaxy S4 can only produce around 4mW into 35Ω. The Behringer's headphone output is rated at 3.7mW@100Ω (with a 50Ω output impedance - I'm not surprised it's received criticism), so even under ideal conditions it can't be producing more than 11.5mW into 32Ω (and is probably producing less). None of these is enough to drive the Havi B3 to target levels, as it requires 34mW into 32Ω to reach 110dB. Luckily, outboard headphone amps with enough power are pretty cheap these days, though carrying around an extra box is a PITA. The Clip is so tiny that sticking it onto an amp isn't that much of a hassle, though.
 
'Soundstage' is a general fluffy term that seems to be used a lot when people don't have a more concrete grasp on what's happening, though it is an important attribute that relies on subtle cues in the audio content. But in this case you can crunch the numbers quite easily and find out what's needed.

 

[anetode]

  "Soundstage" is the high end audio term for "placebo effect".

You can't be serious. Sure, with headphones you don't get a proper soundstage, you get a 'headstage', still...

 

[liamstrain]

 
You can't be serious. Sure, with headphones you don't get a proper soundstage, you get a 'headstage', still...

 
But it's a function of the headphones/speakers, not the amplifier. Anyone using the term in relation to an amp, has a long row to hoe. 

 

[analogsurviver]

  This is hilarious beyond extreme :
 

I would like to stress that I do not agree with the statement that cables do not matter. There are at least two audio applications for cables that so far have not been properly adressed . There are probably more. Please do not ask which two apps are so cable dependant - I have plans to make them one day commercially available.
 
In sense that cable made out of unobtainium conductor, woven in silk from Chinese Imperial Court, starched in virgin blood of Martian teenagers
(who by losing virginity prior to reaching 23 years of age risk termination of their rights to get education) and similar extravaganza priced accordingly
, I do agree that cables do not matter - or at least not to any degree proponents of cables would like to present. They can be a very nice frosting on a cake, but never take the cake's place. If the cake is not good to begin with, frosting does not matter - at all. With the two (maybe more) exceptions mentioned above - where cables can not only sound different, but are differences CLEARLY measurable in no uncertain terms. 
 
What I do object with even more passion than shown in the video is the exclusive use of ABX testing for determining of audibility differences. I am not going to say it is not useful - but results of short term tests as mainly used in ABX just do not give the whole picture. There are subtler effects of "whatever you care to name" that are not going to be audible on ABX. Yet they will show themselves painfully audible to anyone who had the possibility to enjoy their benefits with casual music listening over at least weekend time - say the amount of music one would normally play over weekend. And maybe not even during that weekend.
 
Come Monday, with the "standard" (whatever that might be) equipment reintroduced in the system, one starts noticing what is missing compared to the better equipment listened to over weekend. 
 
Quick switching between/among short sound samples does not allow for enough adaptation time for discerning subtler things - at least not for me. Example? While roughly setting up the recording equipment in a hall prior to the arrival of musicians, I was only able to get the inherent noise floor of that hall as low as possible only after i was completely alone in that room for approx 10 minutes; only then did the faint hum emanating from the soft drinks dispenser located one floor above but "acoustically coupled" trough ventilation system became audible. With another person present ( not to mention the whole "band" ), that hum would clearly go unnoticed. Only to rear its ugly head later on during the recording where music is at the soft(est) level(s) for enough time for the soft drink dispenser hum to become glaringly obvious.
 
By then, it is too late... - and one can count on the fact that NOBODY will be accommodating you with an ABX test for the hum audibility of soft drinks dispenser one floor above - not during Sunday, chosen specifically for recording due to the fact it is the only daytime when building is not used simultaneously for MANY musically related activities, dance included.

 

[bigshot]

 
You can't be serious. Sure, with headphones you don't get a proper soundstage, you get a 'headstage', still...

I am totally serious. How important do you think crosstalk is with headphones?
 
There are tons of wires available for less than a meal at McDonalds that will do the job as well as any other set of wires. Cables don't matter.

 

[liamstrain]

  Come Monday, with the "standard" (whatever that might be) equipment reintroduced in the system, one starts noticing what is missing compared to the better equipment listened to over weekend. 
 

 
I'm sure it could be arranged that someone else could blind swap, without your knowing when or if they were swapped over the course of several weeks - and compare your impressions taken at regular intervals during that period.
 
I'd be rather curious to see your results from such a longer period dbt.
 
I agree - there are certain instances when the cable matters, a bit. Especially when it is part of the circuit (as in an electric guitar, for instance). But for listening, provided that the cable isn't made poorly or deliberately to color (e.g. with wildly out of norm capacitance, or inductance, or far too narrow a gauge for the application) and provided that the equipment in use isn't so esoteric or poorly designed that it's going to start oscillating if something is even a fraction off...then cables don't matter. If you are choosing to use such equipment, then a larger conversation needs to be had about that.

 

[Ruben123]

But it's a function of the headphones/speakers, not the amplifier. Anyone using the term in relation to an amp, has a long row to hoe. 

This is what i mean: my amps are not the best, in numbers, but they do drive my Havi with ease, much higher volume and ill become deaf. I also dont hear clipping at -22dB.

Also, how can a louder (just louder! ) signal cause more soudstage/spacing/etc.... I guess it cannot

P.s. i rarely go above 90-95dB

 

[charleski]

This is what i mean: my amps are not the best, in numbers, but they do drive my Havi with ease, much higher volume and ill become deaf. I also dont hear clipping at -22dB.

Also, how can a louder (just louder! ) signal cause more soudstage/spacing/etc.... I guess it cannot

Well the answer to that is easy. The ear's equal-loudness contours are not parallel - the softer the music, the less you'll hear in the bass and treble and the greater the variation in the midrange, and this mucks up the positional cues.

It's true, though, that the Clip is gain-limited, so you can't push it into clipping.

 

[castleofargh]

Also, how can a louder (just louder! ) signal cause more soudstage/spacing/etc.... I guess it cannot
 

it has nothing to do with the gear and everything to do with your ears. everything sounds better when a little louder. if you don't believe in this, you might want to look into it and experiment, because volume mismatch is the single most common cause for false statement and drama in the audio world. loudness changes everything!

 

[davidsh]

A myth (?) I've found when reading up on current amps: Say we have a low Z negative feedback amp the reactive elements of the speaker and oscillations will induce current at the speaker amp output which will wreck havoc with the negative feedback. 
 
Can someone help me elaborate and perhaps help me understand negative feedback better?

 

[liamstrain]

 
Well the answer to that is easy. The ear's equal-loudness contours are not parallel - the softer the music, the less you'll hear in the bass and treble and the greater the variation in the midrange, and this mucks up the positional cues.

It's true, though, that the Clip is gain-limited, so you can't push it into clipping.

 
Yes - but two amps of differing power, but played at the same volume wouldn't do this. Which is the point. 

 

[Ruben123]

So... IF i dont listen music at "loud" volume, my relatively poor amps are enough given that they do not clip?
But if you want more power (=louder) you are going to the amp's limits and THERE you start to see differences.

Which, if im correct, means that an amp increases soundstage by placebo and, if you need/want it, higher volume.


Btw, i go for a good seal all the time so i can lower the volume to save my ears!

 

[charleski]

   
Yes - but two amps of differing power, but played at the same volume wouldn't do this. Which is the point. 

You need an amp that's capable of delivering enough power without clipping to drive the headphone to levels where you can resolve the positional cues properly. That's the point.
 
If all you need is 50mW you won't gain an advantage by having a 500mW amp. But you will be at a disadvantage if your amp can only produce 20mW.

So... IF i dont listen music at "loud" volume, my relatively poor amps are enough given that they do not clip?
But if you want more power (=louder) you are going to the amp's limits and THERE you start to see differences.

Which, if im correct, means that an amp increases soundstage by placebo and, if you need/want it, higher volume.


Btw, i go for a good seal all the time so i can lower the volume to save my ears!Was that actually a question you posted, or were you looking for

Were you actually asking a question originally? ...
 
Localisation is based on the integration of inter-aural intensity and phase differences, along with auditory stream analysis. There's a good introduction here. Inter-aural intensity differences are based on shading due to the shape of the head, and become more pronounced with higher frequencies, starting at around 1.5kHz (this is because the longer the wavelength the more it will diffract around an obstacle). As sound gets softer the relationship between the intensity and phase differences changes because of the alterations in the ear's frequency sensitivity. Put simply, it's easier to hear where a loud sound is coming from than a soft sound (in the absence of complications from reflections). This isn't a placebo.