[smeggy]

So I'm thinking more about possible options for a DIY ortho ribbon driver. Now I'm no genius at electrical thingies by any stretch of the imagination but I've been pondering on ready made parts that may do the job and I've kicked into desperation being the mother of invention mode, so I have some questions and thoughts to throw out there....

A normal iso driver has a single track spiraling and wiggling all over the place. One continuous track. Now, is there any reason parallel tracks can't be used? I'm thinking along the lines of a standard HDD printed circuit ribbon style cable, 50 tracks or so going in one end and out the other. If we had, for instance, a + signal with 8 Ohm resistor feeding one side connected to all 50 traces and going out the other end coming together to the - signal between two strong magnet rows, would this provide a workable drive?

This intrigues me as these could come with a standard mini HDD connector which could act as part of the frame to mount the magnet assemblies to. I've never heard of a parallel trace driver and thought this may do a decent job for cheap if we find cable thin and strong enough. It would be a really easy way to construct a long throw ribbon driver with little in the way of expense and complication of any other types.

So, theres my thinking, delusional as it may be, what I need from you clever people is technicalities as to how it might work, whether it's a totlly dumb idea or if my ideas need to go somewhere else due to electrical or technical do-dads I'm not aware of.

Looking forward to hearing thoughts on this.

Example ribbon type

 

[Serge44]

TDS-7
100$ is not too high. There are other TDS-7's on sale now, in better condition, but the price will be much higher, up to 200-300$.
In this small article http://ivanovandrey.ru/files/literat..._7_8_tds_7.pdf
you can look on a very very poor quality Graph.#2 (Рис.2).
At this graph you can find comparison TDS-7, Wharfedale ID1, Stax SR-44 and TDS1 (the last one aren't orthos).

 

[Kabeer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjarnetv /img/forum/go_quote.gif i got a pair of hp-50 from kabeer yesterday, but since my ef1 is stuck at the post-office i cant try them properly amped yet. i did try them out of my beresford dac, but so far they sound very overdamped, with recessed midrange and overpowering highs. bass is quite nice actually; perfectly adequate for my tastes (i were told they were the bass light version) looking forward to trying them on a proper amp, and i do expect them to transform into an acceptable headphone, but so far they are soundly crushed by the franken-sfi

It's entirely possible your Beresford is doing a strange job of driving it. Otherwise... maybe you just dont like my reflex dot.
Remove the reflex dot, and dunno how you would be able to call the midrange recessed

.

Yamaha's have some of the finest midrange around IMO. But I do see how Yamaha's could sound recessed after the Yuckiness of SFI's

 

[Kabeer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serge44 /img/forum/go_quote.gif TDS-7 100$ is not too high. There are other TDS-7's on sale now, in better condition, but the price will be much higher, up to 200-300$. In this small article http://ivanovandrey.ru/files/literat..._7_8_tds_7.pdf you can look on a very very poor quality Graph.#2 (Рис.2). At this graph you can find comparison TDS-7, Wharfedale ID1, Stax SR-44 and TDS1 (the last one aren't orthos).

Hey Serge,

What orthos are your favourtie beasts? Modded or not.

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy The ID-1 could easily [be used] as an 'off ear' driver with no pads.

What kind of pads did it come with? Photos of old veterans show something that looks like a velour pad, but that's probably not what they were.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy Any mechanical damping will easily overpower their motor function. The stuff they put in the cups is simply to cut down reflections and keep dust and debris out. Held up to the light you can see clear through it; even though it's nearly 1/4" thick it's a very loose fiber structure.

Ah. I misinterpreted the pad I saw. It's the equivalent of the mineral wool pads in the Japanese isos.

At a rough guess, what would you say is the max excursion of that ribbon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy You can't have a small driver-ear volume as you end up with air coupling, which again will prevent them working properly.

Makes sense. At least, it does if "air coupling" means what I think it does-- a trapped volume of air that acts as a spring that pushes back on the diaphragm. So the original pads were most likely porous, maybe cloth over foam. Right? [WRONG-- the original Wharfedale Iso pads were pleather-covered] Have you changed the pleather-covered pads that we saw in the photos?


As I recall, setmenu's ribbonphone used earpads made of naked foam.



Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy /img/forum/go_quote.gif would this provide a workable drive?

I can't help thinking efficiency wouldn't be terribly good with just one "turn". Remember, this is an electromagnet, just flattened out. If you follow a single trace on the 'Dale's diaphragm, you'll see it go all the way around, then start around again. A single turn of several parallel tracks would also have a very low impedance.

Setmenu had his ribbons made for him. Maybe it's time to give him a nudge..

.

 

[smeggy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif What kind of pads did it come with? Photos of old veterans show something that looks like a velour pad, but that's probably not what they were.

The originals were pleather covers over a foam cushion. The foam on mine is original, I just covered them in leather and to all intents and purposes, the same as original.

Quote:

Ah. I misinterpreted the pad I saw. It's the equivalent of the mineral wool pads in the Japanese isos.

Yep, similar stuff but rougher and even less dense.

Quote:

At a rough guess, what would you say is the max excursion of that ribbon?

I don't know with any certainty but I'd imagine a good 1.5 mm or more


Quote:

Makes sense. So the original pads were most likely porous, maybe cloth over foam. Have you changed the pleather-covered pads that we saw in the photos? Here's a lousy-quality photo of a supposedly NIB Wharfey: As I recall, setmenu's ribbonphone used earpads made of naked foam.

The pleather usually rots off so there's probably little original covering left on any iso.

Quote:

I can't help thinking efficiency wouldn't be terribly good with just one "turn". Remember, this is an electromagnet, just flattened out. If you follow a single trace on the 'Dale's diaphragm, you'll see it go all the way around, then start around again. A single turn of several parallel tracks would also have a very low impedance. Setmenu had his ribbons made for him. Maybe it's time to give him a nudge.. .

The impedance thing was why I added an 8 ohm resistor. I have no idea of sensitivities which is why I'm asking you clever people.

I've already talked with setmenu on this.

 

[Serge44]

Favourite orthos?
It's a tough question.

I like TDS 15 for heavy metal listening (especially from USSR, China, Japan). For these cans I don't feel I need any modding.

TDS 5M (bass-light version, I hate bass-heavy version) for 80-s rock, dream pop, 4AD rock. These cans have the same classic damping as Yamaha HP-1. Most of TDS 5M owners prefer cable changing too. Considering to be best soviet headphones but it is arguable for me, I enjoying TDS 15 as well.

Dual DK 330 - lost their glassy sound after long burning. But from time to time I like decay of these cans, especially for cello, violins music. Without modding they have just a bit upper bass hump but I like them without modding anyway.

TDS 16 - I like them for guitar music like some classic blues which I listening very rare but these cans have amazing clear and tight mids plus sharpest the attack I ever heard from any headphones. These cans had the biggest modding: damping, plastic grill removing, cable changing. The biggest impact on sound had grill removing. This mod was approved by another five TDS 16 owners.

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy /img/forum/go_quote.gif The impedance thing was why I added an 8 ohm resistor. I have no idea of sensitivities which is why I'm asking you clever people.

Yeah but yeah but... won't that resistor take the sensitivity down even farther?

Quote:

Originally Posted by smeggy I've already talked with setmenu on this.

So what'd he say?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Serge44 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I like TDS 15 for heavy metal listening (especially from USSR, China, Japan). For these cans I don't feel I need any modding.

Some say the TDS-15 has weak bass. You don't agree, eh?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Serge44 TDS 5M (bass-light version, I hate bass-heavy version)

There are two versions of this too?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Serge44 TDS 16 - I like them for guitar music like some classic blues which I listening very rare but these cans have amazing clear and tight mids plus sharpest the attack I ever heard from any headphones. These cans had the biggest modding: damping, plastic grill removing, cable changing. The biggest impact on sound had grill removing. This mod was approved by another five TDS 16 owners.

Wow! How is the 16's bass?

We haven't seen Angelic around recently. He was very helpful getting us up to speed on the Russian isos and orthos. Hope his girlfriend is still wearing his headphones..

 

[mypasswordis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta The T40 came with a "lens", something that looks like it was supposed to hold the bass in, keep the pressure from dissipating as it entered a suddenly-larger volume-- the foam rings. Trouble is, they messed up the midrange, so I took them out. Maybe a different kind of foam in a different shape would actually do the job. Or maybe an earpad shape could be found that would contain the bass. Foam's easier to manipulate than earpad shape, so I'd start there.

I admittedly stupidly tried a felt ring around the front of the driver, which I felt just muffled everything. I will try to find some non open-cell foam to hopefully hold in some of the bass, but I seriously do not find the bass roll off to be that extreme, and I will probably work on the treble extension first, possibly with some form of small reflex dot, a term which has now been made somewhat taboo. I don't think I want to damp harder and lose more of the bass, but if that's what it takes to bring the treble up, I will have to figure out some way to retain the bass as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta Yeah but yeah but... won't that resistor take the sensitivity down even farther?

By sensitivity down you mean resistance down, right?

I don't suppose we could unparallel-ize the ribbon by bridging traces somehow, could we? It would be extremely tedious to do and completely disastrous if messed up accidentally... The trace designs on the Fostexen are great, it's just that they're not very big in the newest iterations.

 

[BoilermakerFan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludoo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Totally unrelated: I bought from ebay 200 assorted shoelaces for the grand sum of 2 euros. I received them yesterday and there's some great stuff inside the box, so expect more creative cable sleeving from me in the future.

Sounds great Ludoo. I'm experimenting with fabric dyes and some cotton shoelaces to come up with my own color schemes for dyed SennHD414 pads and cable sleeves on my cans...

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypasswordis /img/forum/go_quote.gif By sensitivity down you mean resistance down, right? I don't suppose we could unparallel-ize the ribbon by bridging traces somehow, could we?

1) No, I mean sensitivity down. Smeggy is describing a dropping resistor, which means some of the energy will be burned up in the resistor, which means less energy is getting to the voice coil, which means [even] lower sensitivity for the assembled driver. It's one of those "if ya gotta, ya gotta" kind of things. Historically, ribbon tweeters and ribbon microphones used transformers to avoid this. These days, you could design a dedicated amp designed to work at almost zero ohms, but..


2) This is doable with conductive ink/paint/glue, but it would be tedious, and I believe printed circuit ribbons have a protective layer over the conductors. Maybe it's a coating that could be removed with a solvent, I don't know.

Ideally, you want a fine conductor going around the diaphragm many times. Consider the number of "turns" a spiral on an SFI makes-- and it does it on both sides of the diaphragm.

To keep sensitivity up, we'd want the diaphragm to be as light as possible, too. Trading off sensitivity for convenience or cost is a compromise I'm willing to make on principle, because I can't afford to have principles. Yes, this is a Brechtian headphone diaphragm design. You saw that one coming.

 

[mypasswordis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, this is a Brechtian headphone diaphragm design. You saw that one coming.

After having looked that up, I'm not sure that I would purposefully want a diaphragm that made sure I knew it was reproducing a representation of reality and not reality itself, even though I know it is true.

 

[Faust2D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, this is a Brechtian headphone diaphragm design. You saw that one coming.

Can't wait for "The Modern Diaphragm is the Epic Diaphragm"

 

[smeggy]

So, realistically my dumb idea is dumb... oh well, I was just looking for ways to cheapskate it along the lines of Wharfedale. I guess that's why they are engineers and I'm an artist

As you can tell, I have little understanding of such matters which is why I threw it out for the clever people to chew on. I guess we could have diaphragms made following Wharfedales pattern with mebbe more coverage...

 

[dBel84]

I wouldn't say dumb , inspirational and on the path to greater discovery.

I finally got a chance to put my SFI cup into practice and by "my" I mean a direct inspiration from the Artist ,not formerly known as the artist and probably never to be referred to the artist again

My objective was simple - make something which needed no tools ( well virtually no tools ) that fitted into a grado frame.

I used standard craft discs which are dead cheap from JoAnn's , glued them together and drilled out the hole for the driver. This is the only tool I bought - forstner bit. I wanted to side vent the driver similar to the yamaha design as this is what works extremely well with my AT-SFIs. To achieve this I cut slots into one of the layers prior to gluing it all down.

The results - very similar to Smeggy's woodies ( yes he kindly sent me a set of blanks some time ago and I have been playing about with them when I got a little time) The bass in the cups I made is deeper but that had more to do with the pads , overall I am happy with them but they take a lot of work to make and I ripped one to shreds trying to drill out the driver hole - those forstner bits are merciless. ( I don't have a drill press - this would make it a breeze )

now to get some more material to make the other cup and hopefully I don't trash this one.

..dB