@GREQ I cant disagree. Some hesitations still would be how much musical information is at or below 20Hz in general, and if there were any compromises to other sound qualities in order to achieve those lowest lows and was it worth the cost?
Orthodynamic Roundup
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GREQ
Headphoneus Supremus
Exactly.
Sometimes, I think it's also a matter of tuning, and very often it seems that tuning any headphone for superior sub-bass will have a negative impact on other areas, and vice versa when tuning for superior treble extension.
A headphone with superior extension and balanced volume on both ends is a rarity.
@GREQ
!!!!!Congrats on 400 graphs!!!!
Your graphs and accompanying comments save me from buying junk. Me and my money thank you.
!!!!!Congrats on 400 graphs!!!!
Your graphs and accompanying comments save me from buying junk. Me and my money thank you.
khbaur330162
Vintage Ortho Ninja 🥷
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Hey all. Just thought I'd throw a pic out there of my latest project:
For those who don't recognize the drivers, they are from a Yamaha HP-1000. I was able to land a pair for a decent price (best price I've seen any HP/YH-1000 go for).
Damping these has been interesting. They like more damping than YH-100's ime. I feel like I've gotten them nailed down pretty well in this regard, but I might add a layer or donut of Arctic Cotton to make them a little tighter and brighter, I am undecided. I also feel like the custom earpads I had made for KH-100's are a few mm's too thick for KH-1k's, I wish I could have another set custom made just a litttttttle bit thinner, but that's more investment than I wanna commit to on these.
How do they sound? Bass has less grip down low than KH-100's ime but given a proper damping scheme I feel their punch is similar. Driver size issue? Treble is more naturally tuned on KH-1k's. They are also cleaner and more detailed than KH-100's across the entire bandwidth. Very often KH-1k's have more sound texture and instrument character than KH-100's. They resolve lower midrange (read male vocals) a bit better than KH-100's as well. I, as well as others who have heard them, often said KH-100's sounded "real". Well KH-1k's turn that all on its head. These are so much cleaner and tighter. KH-1k's can plant you right at the back of the audience so you can hear all the little whistles or cat calls or whatever is going on in the audience and space them out as if you were there. They pick up so much low level signals I have heard people say things behind the microphone (off stage) which makes my head spin around to see if someone is in the house.
They are not perfect.... YET! I have heard certain vocals have qualities of what I'd call harmonics which creates a haze over the original recording. I am unsure if adding damping will help alleviate this quality or if it is the recording itself. So far I feel like they may have a bit more potential than even KH-100's, but at what cost? KH-100's still stand tall given their build cost. If you can land a YH-100 for ~$100 and a DR-ZX701ip for ~$50 it is one of the best bang for your buck products in all of audio imho. Even if bought for full market value it is an awesome bargain.
Btw if anyone has any interest in this build due to rarity and such I am willing to provide you with a private audition of them on your own rig (read I will ship them to you) provided I recognize you as a vintage orthonaut. Just DM me if you'd like the opportunity to hear.
For those who don't recognize the drivers, they are from a Yamaha HP-1000. I was able to land a pair for a decent price (best price I've seen any HP/YH-1000 go for).
Damping these has been interesting. They like more damping than YH-100's ime. I feel like I've gotten them nailed down pretty well in this regard, but I might add a layer or donut of Arctic Cotton to make them a little tighter and brighter, I am undecided. I also feel like the custom earpads I had made for KH-100's are a few mm's too thick for KH-1k's, I wish I could have another set custom made just a litttttttle bit thinner, but that's more investment than I wanna commit to on these.
How do they sound? Bass has less grip down low than KH-100's ime but given a proper damping scheme I feel their punch is similar. Driver size issue? Treble is more naturally tuned on KH-1k's. They are also cleaner and more detailed than KH-100's across the entire bandwidth. Very often KH-1k's have more sound texture and instrument character than KH-100's. They resolve lower midrange (read male vocals) a bit better than KH-100's as well. I, as well as others who have heard them, often said KH-100's sounded "real". Well KH-1k's turn that all on its head. These are so much cleaner and tighter. KH-1k's can plant you right at the back of the audience so you can hear all the little whistles or cat calls or whatever is going on in the audience and space them out as if you were there. They pick up so much low level signals I have heard people say things behind the microphone (off stage) which makes my head spin around to see if someone is in the house.
They are not perfect.... YET! I have heard certain vocals have qualities of what I'd call harmonics which creates a haze over the original recording. I am unsure if adding damping will help alleviate this quality or if it is the recording itself. So far I feel like they may have a bit more potential than even KH-100's, but at what cost? KH-100's still stand tall given their build cost. If you can land a YH-100 for ~$100 and a DR-ZX701ip for ~$50 it is one of the best bang for your buck products in all of audio imho. Even if bought for full market value it is an awesome bargain.
Btw if anyone has any interest in this build due to rarity and such I am willing to provide you with a private audition of them on your own rig (read I will ship them to you) provided I recognize you as a vintage orthonaut. Just DM me if you'd like the opportunity to hear.
Balanced connections added to YH-2/3 mod (KH-2/3) so can try from Jot2 balanced.
Wondering how compares to modded T50RP (50th Anniversary edition, below).
^ cool 2.5mm balanced to xlr adapter
Wondering how compares to modded T50RP (50th Anniversary edition, below).
^ cool 2.5mm balanced to xlr adapter
ludoo
1000+ Head-Fier
Given how much I love the small driver Yamahas, I decided it was high time I started branching out into their Russian clones. I briefly had a TDS-15 12 years ago, and while I loved its design I never had the time, patience and materials to sit down and mod them.
This time around I started from a different model: I just received a NOS pair of TDS-16 40ohm, and at a first listen they actually sound pretty good even with the old dried up pads, and more importantly they share some of the same traits of the small driver Yamahas: mid-centric with nice tonality, decent bass, a bit more sparkle in the treble which does not hurt. Soundstage is smaller and there's a hint of boxiness, which might be due to the enclosure and lack of cup damping. Very promising so far.
This is their FR compared to my best HP-3 (modded). Keep in mind I use a flat plate and upper mids and treble are lacking the ear reflections and severely under-represented. Waterfall shows some ringing matching the peak before 2k, and a few ridges matching the peaks/troughs from 5k to 8k, cup damping/filling with acoustic material should improve it.
This time around I started from a different model: I just received a NOS pair of TDS-16 40ohm, and at a first listen they actually sound pretty good even with the old dried up pads, and more importantly they share some of the same traits of the small driver Yamahas: mid-centric with nice tonality, decent bass, a bit more sparkle in the treble which does not hurt. Soundstage is smaller and there's a hint of boxiness, which might be due to the enclosure and lack of cup damping. Very promising so far.
This is their FR compared to my best HP-3 (modded). Keep in mind I use a flat plate and upper mids and treble are lacking the ear reflections and severely under-represented. Waterfall shows some ringing matching the peak before 2k, and a few ridges matching the peaks/troughs from 5k to 8k, cup damping/filling with acoustic material should improve it.
khbaur330162
Vintage Ortho Ninja 🥷
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Have you measured the driver on TDS-16? I was under the impression it was 55mm.
-edit-
Sorry, I am thinking of TDS-16 16Ohm.
I have a pair of TDS-16/40's (I think this is what they are) inside an ATH-M2 housing, actually. Horribly insensitive drivers. Could be fun portables if not for the nuclear reactor you need to power them.
-edit-
Sorry, I am thinking of TDS-16 16Ohm.
I have a pair of TDS-16/40's (I think this is what they are) inside an ATH-M2 housing, actually. Horribly insensitive drivers. Could be fun portables if not for the nuclear reactor you need to power them.
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ludoo
1000+ Head-Fier
I have not opened them yet but will soon. I also read driver is supposed to be 55mm, a tight fit in a 60mm baffle. 
STrange that you find them insensitive, I use a Fiio K7 and it has absolutely no problems driving them. For comparison, I switched all my Yamahas to balanced to get more power out of it for them. Will recheck tomorrow, but I will also eventually recable these and terminate to balanced so I can use them on the go out of the Fiio KA5.
How do you find them in the ATH-M2 housing?
STrange that you find them insensitive, I use a Fiio K7 and it has absolutely no problems driving them. For comparison, I switched all my Yamahas to balanced to get more power out of it for them. Will recheck tomorrow, but I will also eventually recable these and terminate to balanced so I can use them on the go out of the Fiio KA5.
How do you find them in the ATH-M2 housing?
khbaur330162
Vintage Ortho Ninja 🥷
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I put these mini Ether pads on them. Honestly they are well balanced and lack the "boxy" effect you speak of with your pair. They sound more open to me. Bass has decent grip and reaches pretty low. Pretty enjoyable listen.
I might have to open these up and see if we can identify the source of the drivers because I barely remember making these, I just know I did something crazy to them years ago and then eventually wired them pentaconn and bought the new pads. It's either a TDS16/40 or some PMB thing, I'm pretty sure.
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ludoo
1000+ Head-Fier
Driver is 50mm.
Damping scheme inside is fairly simple:
- one disc of thin fabric in front of the driver, which is not just for dust protection as it provides some air resistance
- in the back a sandwich of one disc of the same fabric, one disc of thin foam, and one disc of the same fabric again
I tried removing the original layers and replacing with just a thick disc of Visaton speaker damping and completely killed the bass. No surprise there, these probably need actual damping to raise bass, like the small Yamaha drivers.
Also replaced pads and made a pleather headband instead of the stiff abomination they had, which was cutting into my head. Will of course have to reopen them again a few times to figure out how to properly mod, even though factory damping plus some filling in the cups to kill resonances might actually be all they need.
Damping scheme inside is fairly simple:
- one disc of thin fabric in front of the driver, which is not just for dust protection as it provides some air resistance
- in the back a sandwich of one disc of the same fabric, one disc of thin foam, and one disc of the same fabric again
I tried removing the original layers and replacing with just a thick disc of Visaton speaker damping and completely killed the bass.
No surprise there, these probably need actual damping to raise bass, like the small Yamaha drivers.Also replaced pads and made a pleather headband instead of the stiff abomination they had, which was cutting into my head. Will of course have to reopen them again a few times to figure out how to properly mod, even though factory damping plus some filling in the cups to kill resonances might actually be all they need.
ludoo
1000+ Head-Fier
Small update on the TDS-16: spent a little time trying different damping schemes, and they are very sensitive to damping amount/materials, and of course pads make a huge difference. This is my final scheme compared to one of my good modded HP-3.
What you end up with is basically a small driver Yamaha with some actual treble, and some minor ringing/reflections which the Yamahas don't have that have little effect on sound (hint of graininess in the upper mids/treble). Pretty nice headphones overall.
What I ended up using is, from the back of the cups: original black fabric, disc of polyester filling (stove filter but very similar to speaker damping) roughly the same thinness as the original foam, and a small disc of thermolam leaving the outside row of driver holes free. Making the thermolam larger kills bass, removing it also kills it. Pads are still the original ones as they make a substantial difference in bass amount vs any other pad I tried (as in they get out more bass). I will eventually have to make replacements as they are dried up and not really comfortable.
A couple more charts below comparing them against some low/mid end stats and modern planars.
What you end up with is basically a small driver Yamaha with some actual treble, and some minor ringing/reflections which the Yamahas don't have that have little effect on sound (hint of graininess in the upper mids/treble). Pretty nice headphones overall.
What I ended up using is, from the back of the cups: original black fabric, disc of polyester filling (stove filter but very similar to speaker damping) roughly the same thinness as the original foam, and a small disc of thermolam leaving the outside row of driver holes free. Making the thermolam larger kills bass, removing it also kills it. Pads are still the original ones as they make a substantial difference in bass amount vs any other pad I tried (as in they get out more bass). I will eventually have to make replacements as they are dried up and not really comfortable.
A couple more charts below comparing them against some low/mid end stats and modern planars.
First, compared to my lightly modded ESP/9xx and my favourite Stax which are an SR-Xmk3/SR-5 hybrid. The small TDS are head to head with the Koss up to 8k. None of my planars can do that.
And against a couple low budget Audezes just to have a fixed frame of reference. LCD-1 are lightly modded are very nice in actual use.
And against a couple low budget Audezes just to have a fixed frame of reference. LCD-1 are lightly modded are very nice in actual use.
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khbaur330162
Vintage Ortho Ninja 🥷
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Ok, I finally got around to opening the ATH-M2's. I don't think the drivers match @ludoo 's TDS-16/40's despite similarities, so what these drivers actually are I still don't know. I have been listening to these on and off for the past few days and they are growing on me. Very nice tuning. Polite mids, neutral yet satisfying bass, not complaining about treble, either, and probably HP-2/3 detail retrieval levels. Cute little headphones imho.
ludoo
1000+ Head-Fier
Interesting stuff. You sure these come from a Russian ortho? I remember seeing a pic of the driver iterations for the TDS-16, and yours don't match any (been trying to find the pic again with no luck).
ludoo
1000+ Head-Fier
Changing the topic and moving on to more modern headphones (but still planars), I've been slowly going through my stash catching up with measuring and modding, and put the Audeze Sine on the operating table. Sharing a few bits of info in case they're interesting from a modding PoV.
These are strange animals: inside the phones there's an LC network that tones down a pretty substantial 3k peak. The network is largish and enclosed in a padded bag which fills most of the cups. I quite like these with some light mods, but now that I removed the filter they still sound good but I would not mind toning down the 3k peak a bit. Tried a few things to no avail, any suggestions on tactics I could use?
Edit: reddit post has pics
Turns out it's not that hard: I reduced the are of the front grill creating a "mids lens", and that smoothed the 3k peak and moved it a bit lower. I can show charts if anyone is interested. The modded Sine sound really good and very musical.
These are strange animals: inside the phones there's an LC network that tones down a pretty substantial 3k peak. The network is largish and enclosed in a padded bag which fills most of the cups. I quite like these with some light mods, but now that I removed the filter they still sound good but I would not mind toning down the 3k peak a bit. Tried a few things to no avail, any suggestions on tactics I could use?
Edit: reddit post has pics
Turns out it's not that hard: I reduced the are of the front grill creating a "mids lens", and that smoothed the 3k peak and moved it a bit lower. I can show charts if anyone is interested. The modded Sine sound really good and very musical.
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khbaur330162
Vintage Ortho Ninja 🥷
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No, I am not sure. Actually, the fact that it is not the TDS-16/40 I am fairly certain it was a PMB-6, or something similar. I only bought a few European ortho's, so I'm guessing it's a PMB model. Which exact one I am not sure as it was so long ago.
But I do agree with you @ludoo if you give these cheap European ortho's some love they have potential to sound really good even by today's standards imho.
You have a picture of the lens?
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