Orthodynamic Roundup

[Inkmo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's nothing wrong with the ATH-2's pads, but sure, why not go for the Grado feel? Don't see why not.

I was just sayin'... because it had long been my suspicion that AT got around the bass defeciency problem by cramming the driver closer to the user's ear, hence my interpretation of the ATH-2's sound as 'muddy'. I thought I would try and give things a little breathing room. I figured it would hurt the bass, but improve the soundstage and everything else.

 

[ericj]

Well I went to the local wallyborg and i found the handitak but was unable to locate a micro-tex microfiber chamois.

It would be next to the turtlewax, right?

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo I was just sayin'... because it had long been my suspicion that AT got around the bass deficiency problem by cramming the driver closer to the user's ear, hence my interpretation of the ATH-2's sound as 'muddy'.

If A-T had been really trying to get the driver closer to the ear, they wouldn't have used that @#$%! thick baffle with the holes that don't line up. Bizarre when you think of it, because A-T's own ATH-1, which looked like a cross between the Senn HD 414 and the Pro 30 (all-black, simple headband, nothin' fancy) didn't make that booboo, and neither does the Pro 30. So the driver really isn't that close to your ears; there's almost a quarter inch of holey plastic in between. Okay, I'm exaggerating to make a point but mostly because I'm ticked: an eighth of an inch.

Getting the driver close to the ear is definatley a good idea when you're running an open-back 'phone. So I wouldn't worry about the pads, both because they're already spaced away from your ears, and because we want to keep them funkily original anyway for that '70s vibe. All we want to do, all we ask, is to damp the wee drivers and quarantine (to a certain extent) the backwave, if we can. Don't try to remove the white damping layer-- it is yore friend. The muddiness of the bass is mostly just backwave cancellation and insufficient damping. Without cutting anything or changing anything permanently, I think we can make some significant improvements. Would I like to re-engineer some parts of the ATH-2? Oh yes. I'd like to drill or dremel out that whole part of the baffle that's blocking the driver. But it's not absolutely necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj Well I went to the local wallyborg and i found the handitak but was unable to locate a micro-tex microfiber chamois. It would be next to the turtlewax, right?

[puzzled] Yeah. Turtlewhacks and detailing paraphernalia. There should be several MicroTex products, including the Famous Blue Towel (singular) or towels (smaller, in a 3-pack). Those are hanging on pegs. The fake chamois things are just rolled up with a paper label glued around the middle and may be sitting on a shelf, as they were here in Grand Rapture. WalMart is famous for their blue towel, so I'm blowed if I can figure out why you couldn't find 'em. I've still got my label; want me to scan it?

How much does WalMart get for the Handi-Tak? It's 98 cents at Big Lots.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif [puzzled] Yeah. Turtlewhacks and detailing paraphernalia. There should be several MicroTex products, including the Famous Blue Towel (singular) or towels (smaller, in a 3-pack). Those are hanging on pegs. The fake chamois things are just rolled up with a paper label glued around the middle and may be sitting on a shelf, as they were here in Grand Rapture. WalMart is famous for their blue towel, so I'm blowed if I can figure out why you couldn't find 'em. I've still got my label; want me to scan it?

There were various and sundry Micro-Tex branded products. Many of them chenille or terry, including the famous blue towels. But all the chamois-alike products were either genuine chamois or lesser bonded fibers.

Puzzling, indeed. I'll be out of town friday and will have to visit another mart of wall.

Quote:

How much does WalMart get for the Handi-Tak? It's 98 cents at Big Lots.

98 cents as well.

 

[Inkmo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif If A-T had been really trying to get the driver closer to the ear, they wouldn't have used that @#$%! thick baffle with the holes that don't line up...

Hmm. well OK... Actually, I've been listening to them a little closer. All this talk lately has had me thinking about them like I said. I think now that they aren't so much muddy as they are 'boxed in'. The bass is definitely the most prominent feature, and I think it is more detailed than I gave it credit for initially. The highs, however, are very recessed, and the 'open' feel of the AD900 is definitely not present (I haven't read all the thread so I don't know whether what I'm saying is in line with something already stated, though I thought you said there would be less soundstage no matter what...) Anyways, if backwave isolation is what will tame the bass, then let's!

I wonder if there might be a way to removed the baffle without cutting or anything? I won't know till I get there... but maybe it might be possible to replace it with some foam or acoustically transparent cloth? I don't know whether it's the only thing between me and the driver, though that is what I'm assuming.

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo

Yeah, sometimes I feel that way too. I'll grab my screwdriver and start running around, grunting and slavering, looking for something to mod and then I'll catch my Mr. Hyde persona in a mirror or the back of a polished spoon and confront myself thusly: "Dear sir-- I should like to protest this behaviour in the strongest possible terms.."


Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo The highs, however, are very recessed, and the 'open' feel of the AD900 is definitely not present though I thought you said there would be less soundstage no matter what... Anyways, if backwave isolation is what will tame the bass, then let's!

Well, damping is what will tighten the bass and make it less whompy and also bring up the treble. Since you seem to be suffering from too much bass (and not enough treble), I'd say damping is mostly the problem. Backwave isolation helps the lowest bass most, so it will help balance out the sound, but it won't do anything to help bass-heavitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo I don't know whether it's the only thing between me and the driver, though that is what I'm assuming.

It is. And the driver has a protective veil of netting over its face. So fear not. But I'd still rather not cut away at that baffle or even enlarge the holes, though for the sake of the sound I'd love to do it. I'd like to leave it as original as possible, and not do anything that couldn't be undone, and then live with the results, accepting whatever improvements I could make as a bonus, not wishing for more.

Odd that we haven't come across an example of the ATH-1 yet. Now those are so basic and nasty I wouldn't mind modifying them harshly. Meanwhile, we have the stupid-cheap Pro 30s to play with, which are both more comfortable and have greater potential anyway, so who cares, but still, it's odd.

 

[Inkmo]

then, dampen we shall!

Is the yellow tack mod we're discussing the damping, or backwave cancelling one?

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo then, dampen we shall!

That line calls for a 'toon, methinks. At some future date.

I've got the earpad slowly peeled off one of my ATH-2 drivers; we'll take photos (or I will, at least) and do it simo-taneously(R). Wee R Teem Orthoe!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inkmo Is the yellow tack mod we're discussing the damping, or backwave canceling one?

Backwave un-canceling. We want to make sure any driver is sealed airtightly against its baffle. Don't want them bad vibes leakin' out. I'ma gunna use the yello tack to fill the funny holes and gaps in the ATH-2 baffle, too.

All synchronize watches.. Okay, now raise Phillips screwdrivers and yell R Wee Naught Menn? Wee R Teem Orthoe! Tonight, after work, we deploy! Go to the ATH-2 thread to continue with this barbaric disembowelment.

.

 

[Inkmo]

A: You're an Orthodynamo! Hope it goes well.
::thinks of a theme song for orthoteam::

 

[ericj]

While driving southound through the city west of a northbound river i engaged a seller of barricades and acquired some MicroTex polishing cloths.

I'm still trying to find the right balance with my YH-2, and will start trying a few discs of this stuff. As for the Pro 30, it seems to be Just Dandy at all frequencies, but I am not golden-eared or anything, so how should i know?

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj While driving southound through the city west of a northbound river i engaged a seller of barricades and acquired some MicroTex polishing cloths.

Whew! Thank goodness for mysterious barricades. That traffic pattern reminds me of Boston.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj I'm still trying to find the right balance with my YH-2, and will start trying a few discs of this stuff.

Yes, the YH-2 is terra idon'tknowa for me. Let us know how this model responds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj As for the Pro 30, it seems to be Just Dandy at all frequencies, but I am not golden-eared or anything, so how should i know?

I'm glad you found the combination with the Pro 30, the only isodynamic to ever appear on Miami Vice, but you bring up an interesting philosophical/physiological point: I maintain, all of those who scream that we're all different and one opinion is just as good as another (maybe even moreso) to the contrary, that our hearing apparatus, Mister Ear-Brain, has a compressor-limiter function that gives our hearing a logarithmic dynamic range. It balances not only loud and soft but also spectral balance. Just as our eyes auto color balance seeking sums-to-gray, I believe our ears are doing something similar, always seeking a spectral balance that averages out to what we would graph as "flat".

So we're not all so very different. In fact, we're all looking for more or less the same thing. It's just that we get seduced by great bass or great treble and seesaw back and forth across the zero in ever smaller oscillations until finally we have ears that are trained to hear "flat". So if they sound Just Dandy, if they appear to have snapped into focus, you may indeed have come internally to rest with the Pro 30s as they are. Very zen. But what do I know.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whew! Thank goodness for mysterious barricades. That traffic pattern reminds me of Boston.

Indeed. They even had construction AND the control lights out at a major intersection.


Quote:

Yes, the YH-2 is terra idon'tknowa for me. Let us know how this model responds.

Well, the problem i run into with the YH-2 is that too much damping makes them very quiet.

When i had one disc of felt - wide diameter - behind the driver with just a small disc of low-density foam behind that, the sound was even but boosted bass was distorted.

So, i re-stack with the large disc at the back, then medium-density foam, then a small disc, and somehow this was unsatisfying. bass seemed weak, highs seemed washed out.

Cut the foam in half (thinner), try again, and it basically sounds like it did at step one. Disappointing.

So i tried replacing the small disc right on the back of the driver with two discs of this micro-flannel.

Response? Very flat. And very, very quiet.

So now it's one disc of microtex flannel, thin piece of medium density foam, large disc of felt.

It sounds good but the Pro 30 is punchier. Or maybe that's just my perception because i can only reach a comfortable listening level by turning the DAP and the M3 all the way up - a level that is earsplitting with the Pro 30.

Maybe i should bump the gain on the M3 from the standard 11 to 16 or so and see how i like the YH-2 turned up.

On the other hand, the Pro 30 also sits better against my ears, and seems to isolate better. This is one of the reasons I'm working on Frankenphone II, Electric Boogaloo

Or, you know, maybe i should just finally get my hands on one of the larger Yamaha orthos, or a T40, or something.

Quote:

So we're not all so very different. In fact, we're all looking for more or less the same thing. It's just that we get seduced by great bass or great treble and seesaw back and forth across the zero in ever smaller oscillations until finally we have ears that are trained to hear "flat". So if they sound Just Dandy, if they appear to have snapped into focus, you may indeed have come internally to rest with the Pro 30s as they are. Very zen. But what do I know.

Yeah. I'm sure you can relate to the issue of not being sure what "flat" is when you have 10 really good pairs of headphones at your immediate disposal.

 

[Inkmo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif Inkmo, let's move the unscrew-and-photo session to tomorrow night. I'm wiped; I can barely manage the following pseudophilosophical discussion with eric the j:

That's cool. I'm not even at home tonight, so no sweat. I'm in Austin, actually, and I might just get to catch a little of South by Southwest

 

[wualta]

I should send Inkmo a postcard from Denton:

Heh heh. "Electric Boogaloo." Heh heh. Snort. "Frankenphone Two". Heh. [shakes head, snaps out of it]


Quote:

Originally Posted by ericj ...So i tried replacing the small disc right on the back of the driver with two discs of this micro-flannel. Response? Very flat. And very, very quiet.

Damping does make a transducer less efficient. The reason why Bose's Wave Radio does what it does is its unusual efficiency at the low end, and it gains this efficiency by being multiresonant, like a row of organ pipes. In other words, the opposite of damped motion, but cleverly constrained. It's not high fidelity, but it's pleasing.

With the ortho diaphragm ("fram"), we don't have that option without access to an injection molding machine, so we have to accept that a damped ortho is a "quiet" ortho. We've sucked the energy out of the big hump in the response caused by resonant (ie, extra) motion and converted it to heat, leaving, we hope, a flat response curve.

.

 

[ericj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wualta /img/forum/go_quote.gif With the ortho diaphragm ("fram"), we don't have that option without access to an injection molding machine, so we have to accept that a damped ortho is a "quiet" ortho. We've sucked the energy out of the big hump in the response caused by resonant (ie, extra) motion and converted it to heat, leaving, we hope, a flat response curve.

Well, yes, as expected, but when i say the yh-2 is quiet when severely damped, I mean maybe a third of the output of my 600-ohm cans on the same source. Seems excessive.