[gurubhai]

^Nothing wrong with that, I am all for new experiments( including the off-beat ones )
So, It sounds better this way then the stock housing ?

 

[nickchen]

Quote:

Minimalist headphones:

A RD followup in search of open alternatives, or just some intermediate shot before going on with something else?
 

 

[Kabeer]

Quote:

^Nothing wrong with that, I am all for new experiments( including the off-beat ones )
So, It sounds better this way then the stock housing ?

I havent tried it in a stock housing with zero damping so cannot comment on that, but i prefer the slightly warmer feel of zero damping, and having NOTHIng in the way at the rear gives a lovely open sound, (which is usually always nice on a headphone, as long as the driver is happy to do it).
 
Quote:

Quote:

Minimalist headphones:

A RD followup in search of open alternatives, or just some intermediate shot before going on with something else?
 

It was just an experiment tbh, But i like it like this, I also want to try the 'thunderpanting' method dBel has done and see if that really is the bees knees, otherwise Im gonna use em open like this. As long as i can figure out a headband.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Nice!  You should try some wooden grado style cups with those.  I got some O2 pads for my T20v1 with grado cups and it's honestly one of the best headphones I have heard...

 

[Kabeer]

It would mean making a new baffle and etc . Sounds like a lot of work, id rather just get a headband to fit onto it, secure the cable somehow (and possibly mass damp it a little) and itll be fine.
 
Quote:

Nice!  You should try some wooden grado style cups with those.  I got some O2 pads for my T20v1 with grado cups and it's honestly one of the best headphones I have heard...

 

[rhythmdevils]

Well if it sounds good like that then why mess with it?  If it has an even FR as is then maybe it doesn't need anything. 

 

[Kabeer]

Quote:

Well if it sounds good like that then why mess with it?  If it has an even FR as is then maybe it doesn't need anything. 

Id like to have a headband with it , thats the messing thats needed, got any idea of a headband whose forks would have an approx 6mm hole in it?  (these baffles have poles on them, just waiting for a headband to hook on)

 

[wualta]

Kabeer isn't breaking any rules (though he can be a bit mischeevy, the little scamp). No, he's enjoying the freedom that comes from having a headphone with lots of excursion, i.e., diaphragm motion. The Wharfedale Isodynamic, aka the ID1, is unique in this regard. It's a semi-ribbon driver, semi because the magnets are fore and aft, like a normal ortho's, instead of on either side of the diaphragm. This means it can move more air than any other iso/ortho we know of. There's a surplus of bass, so dealing with the backwave isn't as critical as it is with the constrained diaphragms we're used to with orthos. Some bass cancellation is taking place, of course, but it's not the problem it is otherwise. With good heavy earpads like the Stax, it would be interesting to measure how far down this setup can go (since cancellation increases as the frequency decreases).
 
We tend to think of earcups and pads as necessary, but what they really are is necessary evils. If you have enough diaphragm excursion, you can do nutty things, like do away with cups and pads. Yamaha did this with their YHDs. They had to abandon their "pinch" type drivers to do it, but do it they did. And if you have never heard one, and the opportunity presents itself, do audition an old Sennheiser HD 414 or 424, the first cupless/padless headphones. Keep in mind that they were designed in the late 1960s.
 

 

[rhythmdevils]

How is that padless and cupless? Seems like it has boty but theyre just really minimal and the cups are just really small

edit: "both". That's what I get for trying to post from my phone

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Kabeer isn't breaking any rules (though he can be a bit mischeevy, the little scamp). No, he's enjoying the freedom that comes from having a headphone with lots of excursion, i.e., diaphragm motion. The Wharfedale Isodynamic, aka the ID1, is unique in this regard. It's a semi-ribbon driver, semi because the magnets are fore and aft, like a normal ortho's, instead of on either side of the diaphragm. This means it can move more air than any other iso/ortho we know of. There's a surplus of bass, so dealing with the backwave isn't as critical as it is with the constrained diaphragms we're used to with orthos. Some bass cancellation is taking place, of course, but it's not the problem it is otherwise. With good heavy earpads like the Stax, it would be interesting to measure how far down this setup can go (since cancellation increases as the frequency decreases).
 
We tend to think of earcups and pads as necessary, but what they really are is necessary evils. If you have enough diaphragm excursion, you can do nutty things, like do away with cups and pads. Yamaha did this with their YHDs. They had to abandon their "pinch" type drivers to do it, but do it they did. And if you have never heard one, and the opportunity presents itself, do audition an old Sennheiser HD 414 or 424, the first cupless/padless headphones. Keep in mind that they were designed in the late 1960s.
 

An Achedemic question wualta:
At what frequency does rear wave cancellation happen in headphones as opposed to speakers?
Since the wavelength of a 40Hz note is around 28 feet, the wavelength of a 20Hz note is almost 56 feet long, and a 60Hz note is nearly 18.6 feet long.
 
In other words, if we're dealing with wavelengths in excess of 20 feet, how can they create cancellation issues when the rear wave is generated only an inch away from the front wave?
 
If rear wave cancellation is the main limiting issue with open back cans, why do Grados, and similarly designed cans work at all?  Maybe there's another factor at work which limits LF response for open back cans??

 

[gurubhai]

I have never heard an open headphone which produces good sub-bass except LCD-2 (and this one provides excellent seal with its ear pads to deal with the backwave).
May be the rear wave cancellation effect isn't as important on the entire bass range but its effect on the sub bass does seem to be significant.
And in case of some vintage orthos, we already don't have much bass to deal with.So, we try to preserve what we can ( well, not the case with the wharfie though as we can see)

 

[wualta]

Quote:

How is that padless and cupless? Seems like it has boty but theyre just really minimal and the cups are just really small

Are we agreed that there are no earpads?  The driver sits in what amounts to free space next to the ear, separated from it by nothing more than open-cell foam. The driver is in a cup, but one that's sliced open several times-- it's not "containing" anything. It's only there to attach to the headband. Call it effectively cupless.
 
 


Quote:

An Achedemic question wualta:
At what frequency does rear wave cancellation happen in headphones as opposed to speakers?
Since the wavelength of a 40Hz note is around 28 feet, the wavelength of a 20Hz note is almost 56 feet long, and a 60Hz note is nearly 18.6 feet long.
 
In other words, if we're dealing with wavelengths in excess of 20 feet, how can they create cancellation issues when the rear wave is generated only an inch away from the front wave?
 
If rear wave cancellation is the main limiting issue with open back cans, why do Grados, and similarly designed cans work at all?  Maybe there's another factor at work which limits LF response for open back cans??

Thought experiment: if we generate a 40 Hz sine wave and its antiwave on either side of a 12-micron dipole diaphragm, and don't put anything in the way between them, then, because the waves are so long, they're entirely nondirectional and will meet at virtually the same spot in their cycle and, because they began perfectly out of phase, they will cancel perfectly. This will keep happening as we go up in frequency until the waves start to beam off either side of the diaphragm, which begins in earnest when the wavelength is equal to the diameter of the driver, but there's no sharp cutoff when these things happen. The increasing directionality of the front and back waves adds a delay before the backwave can get around to trying to cancel the frontwave, and by the time it gets there, the waves are no longer in perfect antiphase so they don't cancel perfectly. The advantage over speakers is that the ear is always near the diaphragm in headphones (so any delay of the backwave, however small, has maximum effect), plus there's no interference from the room.
 
If we can delay and/or attenuate the backwave, we can generate our bass and hear it too. Keeping the ear near the diaphragm, plus short tunnel and a layer of felt seems to do the trick, if Grado is any indication. Works better than I would've expected. But then, dynamic drivers tend to have much more excursion than orthos, so the Surplus of Bass phenomenon applies-- we'll lose some, but not so much that the headphone becomes a shrill, screeching shrewphone. And usually we gain apparent headstage. This was the teaching of Sennheiser back 40 years ago, and aside from retreating to the use of earpads, they've pretty much stuck to their original insight. The HD 414 doesn't do deep bass, but it's surprisingly good after all these years, and the psychophysiologic feeling of freedom adds to the illusion of headstage.
 
If there any suggestions for a parallel or alternate mechanism for bass or lack of it in open headphones, I for one would be glad to hear them put forth.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Quote:

How is that padless and cupless? Seems like it has boty but theyre just really minimal and the cups are just really small

Are we agreed that there are no earpads?  The driver sits in what amounts to free space next to the ear, separated from it by nothing more than open-cell foam. The driver is in a cup, but one that's sliced open several times-- it's not "containing" anything. It's only there to attach to the headband. Call it effectively cupless.
 

Yeah I see your point that the pads don't have leather or solid material creating a closed "container" between driver and ear, and the cups are very open, but they are closed behind the driver.  Probably about as open as a YH1.  I would be willing to bet that they would sound very different if you removed the cup, and pads and held them next to your ear.  But yeah they certainly are less closed in than a lot of headphones. 
 
You would think something very open like that would have a big airy soundstage, but I bet it has a miserably small soundstage.  Edit:  Woops, it looks like you said they have decent soundstage/headstage.  NM!
 

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

It's fun how the vintage orthos differ without pads. Some loose all the bass, others get a nice agressive sound, and some just keep the deep bass going anyway.

 

[Kabeer]

I should note, the Wharfie baffle has holes in it, I kept one (~12x4mm) hole open. So the seal on this is not Greatt, but it sounds better this way, I believe some leakyness is conductive to the 'openess' of the sound, if there is more than ample bass to spare.

With the leak all plugged up it gets a little dark. With the hole the everything clears up, and more of the treble frequency shows its face.