[spook76]

Quote:

 
I agree.  The 4r has incredible smoothness between drivers for an overall very relaxing smooth sound that doesn't lack any areas of detail across the spectrum, but they have a sort of soft sound like everything is under a pillow. I'd say the treble is better than the shure, but ironically the shure end up sounding more vibrant and interesting overall.  The 4r wins if you use eq though, as they can achieve practically perfect flatness, whereas no matter how much eq you use, you can't fully recover the lost treble with the shures quality-wise".
 
The comfort is probably similar unless your ears are small, then i wouldn't recommend the shure as they are big enough to hurt the lobe of a small ear.  The westones don't.  Similar shape and fit otherwise in my opinion.  The 4r are lighter as well though if that matters.

Just a question Luis have you ever actually owned either of these IEMs. Your profile does not list either as owned or having been owned. I do agree that the W4 seem to have a veil over the sound that even after amping them was still present. As for the tremble you should try the 535 reds, that is why I believe Shure produced them to overcome the shortfall in the original 535s. 

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

Just a question Luis have you ever actually owned either of these IEMs.

 
You may not have meant it, but that sounded a little snide.
 
Yes I've owned both and thoroughly listened to both.  I got rid of the 535 because I couldn't deal with the treble rolloff.  I currently have the 4R and am selling that now for the same reasons mentioned by me here about it being veiled and soft sounding.
 
I've had the 4R for a while now and I've tried everything to improve it.  Basically, I think they are both great but both have those flaws mentioned.  I ultimately ended up with the cheaper ER-4S, and I believe it is superior in every way to both personally.  It eliminates the problems of both completely and with the proper tips and seal it is incredibly flat and accurate.
 
I've heard many times that the reds improve the treble, and if that is true I think they are probably the second best IEM after the ER-4S, as it would put them a step above the 4R in my mind.  However, it would have to be pretty significant of a fix to match the ER-4S treble accuracy.  The frequency rolloff starts really early on the 535 around 500-1000hz and then drops fast around 7-8khz. After 9khz they are pretty low and very lacking.
 
The 4R has the boosted bass/midbass causing a veiled sound and although the treble is technically very good, the bass masking and also a dip in the high/mids low/highs results in them sounding less than flat.
 
I prefer flat and accurate like a studio monitor speaker.  The ER-4S is very slightly lacking in low bass, but otherwise it flat all the way from a hundred hz or so up to 16+ khz only slightly dropping as it approaches 20khz.
 
I'm not sure what gave you the impression I might not have owned them, but all I can say is that in my search for the best IEM I found none of them to be flat compared to my HD600 over ears.  I decided to sell the 4R because I didn't use them having the HD600s.  Then I happened to hear the ER-4S and was instantly sold.  It was everything i was looking for.  I threw in a JDS labs c5 amp, and the bass boost makes up the slightly low bass perfectly making them practically perfectly flat across the board.  I'm a happy man.
 
To each his own.  I would say the 535, 4R and pfe112 were the best IEMs I ever heard before the ER-4S came along.  Each of the three had their ups and downs and I'd say they will fit different tastes.  But I find the ER-4S fit everything as they are flat allowing the music to be heard as it was recorded (or as close to it in an IEM).
 
I'd love to hear the 535 red nonetheless, as it sounds like the boosted treble response would make them much closer to flat than the 4R, but I have no need now other than curiosity.    But I've just been giving my views in case they might be helpful to others.  I have analyzed the heck out of the two IEMs and also just plain enjoyed them.  But I've listened to every little component of the sound of each and have a strong familiarity with them.

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

Just a question Luis have you ever actually owned either of these IEMs. Your profile does not list either as owned or having been owned. I do agree that the W4 seem to have a veil over the sound that even after amping them was still present. As for the tremble you should try the 535 reds, that is why I believe Shure produced them to overcome the shortfall in the original 535s. 

 
p.s.  i never think to update my profile.  I'll have to do that later.  You can check the forums for reviews by me.  I posted my youtube video reviews of the shure (working on the 4r now) i placed a review in the product page and I have a multi IEM comparison thread as well.

 

[spook76]

Quote:

 
You may not have meant it, but that sounded a little snide.
 
Yes I've owned both and thoroughly listened to both.  I got rid of the 535 because I couldn't deal with the treble rolloff.  I currently have the 4R and am selling that now for the same reasons mentioned by me here about it being veiled and soft sounding.
 
I've had the 4R for a while now and I've tried everything to improve it.  Basically, I think they are both great but both have those flaws mentioned.  I ultimately ended up with the cheaper ER-4S, and I believe it is superior in every way to both personally.  It eliminates the problems of both completely and with the proper tips and seal it is incredibly flat and accurate.
 
I've heard many times that the reds improve the treble, and if that is true I think they are probably the second best IEM after the ER-4S, as it would put them a step above the 4R in my mind.  However, it would have to be pretty significant of a fix to match the ER-4S treble accuracy.  The frequency rolloff starts really early on the 535 around 500-1000hz and then drops fast around 7-8khz. After 9khz they are pretty low and very lacking.
 
The 4R has the boosted bass/midbass causing a veiled sound and although the treble is technically very good, the bass masking and also a dip in the high/mids low/highs results in them sounding less than flat.
 
I prefer flat and accurate like a studio monitor speaker.  The ER-4S is very slightly lacking in low bass, but otherwise it flat all the way from a hundred hz or so up to 16+ khz only slightly dropping as it approaches 20khz.
 
I'm not sure what gave you the impression I might not have owned them, but all I can say is that in my search for the best IEM I found none of them to be flat compared to my HD600 over ears.  I decided to sell the 4R because I didn't use them having the HD600s.  Then I happened to hear the ER-4S and was instantly sold.  It was everything i was looking for.  I threw in a JDS labs c5 amp, and the bass boost makes up the slightly low bass perfectly making them practically perfectly flat across the board.  I'm a happy man.
 
To each his own.  I would say the 535, 4R and pfe112 were the best IEMs I ever heard before the ER-4S came along.  Each of the three had their ups and downs and I'd say they will fit different tastes.  But I find the ER-4S fit everything as they are flat allowing the music to be heard as it was recorded (or as close to it in an IEM).
 
I'd love to hear the 535 red nonetheless, as it sounds like the boosted treble response would make them much closer to flat than the 4R, but I have no need now other than curiosity.    But I've just been giving my views in case they might be helpful to others.  I have analyzed the heck out of the two IEMs and also just plain enjoyed them.  But I've listened to every little component of the sound of each and have a strong familiarity with them.

Luis my apologies if you thought I was being snide. I just hate when people comment on products they have never owned or tried out for 5 minutes in a shop.  As for the increased treble in the reds it is nothing short of amazing. I would never say the Shure's are flat but the extended treble makes them soar in my opinion.  
 
One question, you talk about seeking the flattest IEM which I can understand and appreciate but then why do you also mention equalizing the sound. I would think if you seek a flat response as you say the ER-4S has why then run the sound through an equalizer. 

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

Luis my apologies if you thought I was being snide. I just hate when people comment on products they have never owned or tried out for 5 minutes in a shop.  As for the increased treble in the reds it is nothing short of amazing. I would never say the Shure's are flat but the extended treble makes them soar in my opinion.  
 
One question, you talk about seeking the flattest IEM which I can understand and appreciate but then why do you also mention equalizing the sound. I would think if you seek a flat response as you say the ER-4S has why then run the sound through an equalizer. 

 
I don't equalize the ER-4S, other than the hardware bass boost on the c5.  I don't think the er-4s needs it, but it gives it a nice low end.  The sad truth is that there simply isn't a 100% flat universal IEM.  The ER-4S is the closest I've found and the "only" only other than perhaps the pfe112 that I can use without "any" EQ.  But given the choice of the bass boost it really gives them that little extra flatness that makes them just incredible.
 
I started out with the mindset that I didn't want any EQ or anything with my earphones.  Ultimately the closest thing I found was the 4R, but I just always ended up using accudio to make them sound flat.  I came to the HD600, which, although not perfectly flat are very close and completely useable without EQ.  I then found I wasn't listening to the 4R or at least not without always using accudio.  So I decided to sell them.  I wanted a portable IEM though for general use and was going to stick with my earpods or something cheaper like the pfe112 until I heard the ER-4S and immediately had to have them.  I am now completely content with my earphones.  I can't tell you how much enjoyment I get listening to the ER-4S.  Add the c5 with bass boost, which keep in mind brings the lows up to a relatively flat level instead of making them "bassy" like other phones, and it's even more enjoyable.
 
I agree about people posting opinions on things they haven't heard.  I only post on things I've very familiar with, otherwise I'll say I haven't heard them much yet, or that I don't own something "but from what I've heard" or something like that.  But even then, generally I try to only post on IEMs I've using and have had a while.

 

[spook76]

Quote:

 
I don't equalize the ER-4S, other than the hardware bass boost on the c5.  I don't think the er-4s needs it, but it gives it a nice low end.  The sad truth is that there simply isn't a 100% flat universal IEM.  The ER-4S is the closest I've found and the "only" only other than perhaps the pfe112 that I can use without "any" EQ.  But given the choice of the bass boost it really gives them that little extra flatness that makes them just incredible.
 
I started out with the mindset that I didn't want any EQ or anything with my earphones.  Ultimately the closest thing I found was the 4R, but I just always ended up using accudio to make them sound flat.  I came to the HD600, which, although not perfectly flat are very close and completely useable without EQ.  I then found I wasn't listening to the 4R or at least not without always using accudio.  So I decided to sell them.  I wanted a portable IEM though for general use and was going to stick with my earpods or something cheaper like the pfe112 until I heard the ER-4S and immediately had to have them.  I am now completely content with my earphones.  I can't tell you how much enjoyment I get listening to the ER-4S.  Add the c5 with bass boost, which keep in mind brings the lows up to a relatively flat level instead of making them "bassy" like other phones, and it's even more enjoyable.
 
I agree about people posting opinions on things they haven't heard.  I only post on things I've very familiar with, otherwise I'll say I haven't heard them much yet, or that I don't own something "but from what I've heard" or something like that.  But even then, generally I try to only post on IEMs I've using and have had a while.

I am glad you mentioned the JDS C5. I currently use the Fiio e11 with my Shure's and am on the fence deciding between the C5 and the Fiio e12. I saw your review of the C5 and it seemed to me that you were a little disappointed or am I reading in too much from your review. 

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

I am glad you mentioned the JDS C5. I currently use the Fiio e11 with my Shure's and am on the fence deciding between the C5 and the Fiio e12. I saw your review of the C5 and it seemed to me that you were a little disappointed or am I reading in too much from your review. 

 
Disappointed?  No no no.  I must not have been clear  I'm extremely happy with the amp.  There were a few small problems with the finish on the first batch of amps they made, but they switched to another company and had the next batch fixed or something like that.  Basically, the new cases are finished better.  But it doesn't matter, because John at JDS said he'd send me a new case before I even got mine in the mail.
 
The only other point of "issue" is the bass boost setting.  First, it sounds amazing.  Perfect implementation.  Excellent quality, no bleed into high frequencies with my few headphones I've tried. However, it's about 6.5db boost or something close to that.  I would have preferred a +3db boost or else a choice of two options.  But either way, the boost isn't bad.  It sounds awesome.  I just would prefer less, that's all.  Otherwise, it is extremely neutral sounding, small, convenient, decent battery life, great build quality.  For the price I'm not sure it can be beat if you want a simple neutral high quality portable amp.  I highly recommend it.
 
In fact the 4r sound a bit better on the c5.  Not a drastic difference, but seems to bring out a bit of depth or perhaps dynamics.

 

[Mooses9]

Quote:

 
Disappointed?  No no no.  I must not have been clear  I'm extremely happy with the amp.  There were a few small problems with the finish on the first batch of amps they made, but they switched to another company and had the next batch fixed or something like that.  Basically, the new cases are finished better.  But it doesn't matter, because John at JDS said he'd send me a new case before I even got mine in the mail.
 
The only other point of "issue" is the bass boost setting.  First, it sounds amazing.  Perfect implementation.  Excellent quality, no bleed into high frequencies with my few headphones I've tried. However, it's about 6.5db boost or something close to that.  I would have preferred a +3db boost or else a choice of two options.  But either way, the boost isn't bad.  It sounds awesome.  I just would prefer less, that's all.  Otherwise, it is extremely neutral sounding, small, convenient, decent battery life, great build quality.  For the price I'm not sure it can be beat if you want a simple neutral high quality portable amp.  I highly recommend it.
 
In fact the 4r sound a bit better on the c5.  Not a drastic difference, but seems to bring out a bit of depth or perhaps dynamics.

i feel these attributes hold true to the jds c421 also, although the 421 has a even higher peak of bass boost of +8db. but i agree, perfect implementation of bass very tight full presence and definitly agree the bass boost doesnt seem to drown out any of the other frequencies but just seems to amplify the bass itsself. ive used the bass boost on my tf10s and se530 and its excellent.
 
jds labs have imo one of the best sounding bass boosts ive heard.

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

 
Disappointed?  No no no.  I must not have been clear  I'm extremely happy with the amp.  There were a few small problems with the finish on the first batch of amps they made, but they switched to another company and had the next batch fixed or something like that.  Basically, the new cases are finished better.  But it doesn't matter, because John at JDS said he'd send me a new case before I even got mine in the mail.
 
The only other point of "issue" is the bass boost setting.  First, it sounds amazing.  Perfect implementation.  Excellent quality, no bleed into high frequencies with my few headphones I've tried. However, it's about 6.5db boost or something close to that.  I would have preferred a +3db boost or else a choice of two options.  But either way, the boost isn't bad.  It sounds awesome.  I just would prefer less, that's all.  Otherwise, it is extremely neutral sounding, small, convenient, decent battery life, great build quality.  For the price I'm not sure it can be beat if you want a simple neutral high quality portable amp.  I highly recommend it.
 
In fact the 4r sound a bit better on the c5.  Not a drastic difference, but seems to bring out a bit of depth or perhaps dynamics.

 
You can play around with the filters to achieve a different bass balance as well. Red filters will result in slightly increased perceived bass, and the orange filters will add a bit to that. You can buy them here: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?N=18321726&Keyword=knowles%20dampers&FS=True
 
It may add just enough for you to take bass boost entirely out of the equation. The reds did it for me.

 

[pacman46]

With the roll offs with the 535's I still find them amazing. I have the clears. I'm thinking about getting the reds. But I want to make sure it's worth it before I buy them. I never really thought about the rolled off highs on them but after reading about it now I notice it alot lol. Maybe its my mind playing tricks on me but I really notice it alot more now lol. I was using them with a iPod classic. And a galaxy s3. Well I sold my s3 and now I own a Sony Xperia t. The James bond phone lol. Anyways these 535's sound much better now with this phone. I find that there is much more detail and everything. Very nice phone. I also had a iPhone 4s and there really isn't any comparison between the iPhone and this Sony. The Sony wins hands down. Just my option of course.

 

[luisdent]

Quote:

 
You can play around with the filters to achieve a different bass balance as well. Red filters will result in slightly increased perceived bass, and the orange filters will add a bit to that. You can buy them here: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?N=18321726&Keyword=knowles%20dampers&FS=True
 
It may add just enough for you to take bass boost entirely out of the equation. The reds did it for me.

 
What?  I'm confused.  Those are filters?  For the ER-4S?  Which one does a slight low bass boost?  I must be missing something, i only see part numbers and such...
 
 
Quote:

With the roll offs with the 535's I still find them amazing. I have the clears. I'm thinking about getting the reds. But I want to make sure it's worth it before I buy them. I never really thought about the rolled off highs on them but after reading about it now I notice it alot lol. Maybe its my mind playing tricks on me but I really notice it alot more now lol. I was using them with a iPod classic. And a galaxy s3. Well I sold my s3 and now I own a Sony Xperia t. The James bond phone lol. Anyways these 535's sound much better now with this phone. I find that there is much more detail and everything. Very nice phone. I also had a iPhone 4s and there really isn't any comparison between the iPhone and this Sony. The Sony wins hands down. Just my option of course.

 



That was one thing I did notice about the clear 535 and thought was interesting.  That is, if you listen to some music and don't "think" about it, it's pretty easy to forget there is any rolloff and simply enjoy the music.  However, with certain music where I'm familiar with the cymbals and high frequency details it's not only noticeably but hard to ignore.  So it's something that some people might not mind, but I would try the better treble version if I were keeping them.  But I have my 4s and aint goin' back haha

 

[pacman46]

Lol fair enough. I like the 4s to I really do but I find the Sony gives me more detail. Maybe the honeymoon phase isn't over yet lol. Just sounds clearer. And when I use my er4's I can add what is called. Clear bass up a notch and gives me just enough low end needed.

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

 
What?  I'm confused.  Those are filters?  For the ER-4S?  Which one does a slight low bass boost?  I must be missing something, i only see part numbers and such...
 

 
Yes those are filters for the ER4S (or any compatible iem). If you look at your ER4S you'll see that you have green filters in the barrel. Your iems should have come with a filter removal tool, since filters have to be removed after a time due to wax build up.
 
The list on that web site looks a little confusing but the part number for the red filter is 721-BF-1921-000, and a little to the right under description it says "

Speakers & Transducers Plug 2.08 dia. 2200 Res, Red.​

" Notice the "Red" at the end of that description. Under that you can find the orange filters. They work by slightly attenuating the treble, which effectively boosts the bass. With the red filters I can't discern any loss of clarity, but the added bass is just enough to get a slight rumble occasionally to my ears. 
 
There's more information about the filters here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/626457/nrb-mod-nut-rattlin-bass-from-an-ety-yes-yes-yes-how-to-nrb-mod
 
Edit: Here's how they graph:
 

 

[uchihaitachi]

TO those who have owned both the SE535 and Westone 4s, are the tips and nozzles identical for both iems?

 

[pacman46]

TO those who have owned both the SE535 and Westone 4s, are the tips and nozzles identical for both iems?
[/quote yes they are interchangeable..