[AmberOzL]

Quote:

Nothing very specific, but addressing his question: he basically asked: "if both are comparable technically, I should those whose described sound sig I prefer, right?" I think there are other things to consider in that case.
 
For example, I find acrylic slightly faster to put on and take off than Silicone, so if you need to pop them in and out often, having only a silicone ciem is not ideal. Unless you also have universals. Besides, if you are someone who does does NOT take good care of his stuff, silicone ciems are slightly more fragile. Then, if you have sensitive canals, I find silicone much less aggressive than acrylic. If you live in a very hot / humid place, some people find silicone is not optimal when you swet a lot. I was thinking about such things. And there might be other things.
 
And there are other factors known to all between these two products: what is your source (as they have VERY different impedance), where do you live (regarding Spiral Ears and deliverely outside Europe), price (SE5 is 1.5 times the price of Miracles), etc.

I used to think silicone is more durable than acrylic but I guess I am wrong. Maybe acrylic shells filled with silicone are very durable so I misremember.
 
I found your explanation very nice and incredibly useful. I have to say, it will be my first ciem and I won't have money to buy second one for a long time. Maybe acrylic could be a better idea as a starter for me. Also day to day use differences like easy to put in take out can be important. I also don't know how is the shape of my ear canal, is it gonna be easy to get a ciem or the canal is rather sensitive. We will see I guess.
 
I am currently in Belgium for my master and even after my master I am planning to stay here. I guess it is not the killing weather for customs but is it the ideal? I don't know honestly. I am someone who takes care of his purchases and baby them so I hope I won't get problem with the durability of the ciems.
 
Money is another concern. Miracles are around 750 euro in here and SE5 way is 1250 euros I guess. I am also interested in Hidition NT6 pro which is around 950 euros. The truth is, I also need a DAP to pair with my high end ciem and only if I buy Miracles I have enough for HDP R10 otherwise HDP R10 has to come a few months later than my ciems.
 
I must thank all of you for all the responses, answers and helps. Today I finished my last exam then I have a little holiday. When I come back I will decide what to order and the process will be started.

 

[AmberOzL]

Oh also another question, related to isolation.
 
Project86 said once, acrylic and silicone shells isolate more or less same but the frequencies they isolate differs.
 
AJ however, finds silicone shell ciems isolate perfectly and better than common acrylic shell.
 
So there is a big difference or not?
 
Also, for day to day life, does average acrylic shell provides enough isolation? I mean, old busses and their old engines, traffic noise, people talk around you, subways etc etc.

 

[Mython]

Quote:

.... for day to day life, does average acrylic shell provides enough isolation? I mean, old busses and their old engines, traffic noise, people talk around you, subways etc etc.

 
Provided they are a good fit and form a correct seal, then yes, acrylic shells absolutely provide enough isolation whilst in noisy environments. If you haven't already done so, then make sure you read the dedicated 'impressions' thread, prior to having your ear impressions done, as your CIEMs will only seal as well as the impressions are done.
 
One other thing to mention is that for CIEMs that use a hybrid design, including a dynamic woofer, then isolation is compromised to some extent, since the dynamic woofers generally require a port, and the downside is that the port also tends to let outside noise penetrate the CIEM. Examples of this would be UM Merlin and MG6 Pro (I ended up sealing the ports on my MG6Pro because I got sick of the noise penetrating, and also the howling & whistling whenever I was wearing them on a windy day.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

Nothing very specific, but addressing his question: he basically asked: "if both are comparable technically, I should those whose described sound sig I prefer, right?" I think there are other things to consider in that case.
 
For example, I find acrylic slightly faster to put on and take off than Silicone, so if you need to pop them in and out often, having only a silicone ciem is not ideal. Unless you also have universals. Besides, if you are someone who does does NOT take good care of his stuff, silicone ciems are slightly more fragile. Then, if you have sensitive canals, I find silicone much less aggressive than acrylic. If you live in a very hot / humid place, some people find silicone is not optimal when you swet a lot. I was thinking about such things. And there might be other things.
 
And there are other factors known to all between these two products: what is your source (as they have VERY different impedance), where do you live (regarding Spiral Ears and deliverely outside Europe), price (SE5 is 1.5 times the price of Miracles), etc.

 
Great post (as usual).
 
Quote:

Oh also another question, related to isolation.
 
Project86 said once, acrylic and silicone shells isolate more or less same but the frequencies they isolate differs.
 
AJ however, finds silicone shell ciems isolate perfectly and better than common acrylic shell.
 
So there is a big difference or not?
 
Also, for day to day life, does average acrylic shell provides enough isolation? I mean, old busses and their old engines, traffic noise, people talk around you, subways etc etc.

 
I have 3 silicone (4 considering the 2 different SE5s) shelled CIEMs and plenty of acrylic; here are my observations:
- Silicone generally isolates better than acrylic, all things considered, but it is very close (solid acrylic EarSonics vs. similarly sized Minerva)
- Canal length is very important for isolation, and also changes the sound to a degree
- Silicone filled acrylic from M-Fidelity is great for isolation and durability (see my PP6 review for sonic comparisons)
- After repeated use, silicone is as easy for me to insert as acrylic, but I am more careful during removal
- While I have never broke a CIEM (except my SA-12 from sweat at the gym), acrylic does seem to have a durability edge
- Actual amounts of isolation will in part depend on your hearing and anatomy.  Some people have more transmission of sound or "awareness" of sound than others.  I think it may depend upon my ear canal moistness and/or focus.  For example, I can use the same CIEM 2 days in a row and one day I will not hear the phone, yet other days I will be able to barely hear it.  I don't have this completely characterized.
 
I am interested to hear others experiences, especially those with a large number of CIEMs.

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

 
Provided they are a good fit and form a correct seal, then yes, acrylic shells absolutely provide enough isolation whilst in noisy environments. If you haven't already done so, then make sure you read the dedicated 'impressions' thread, prior to having your ear impressions done, as your CIEMs will only seal as well as the impressions are done.
 
One other thing to mention is that for CIEMs that use a hybrid design, including a dynamic woofer, then isolation is compromised to some extent, since the dynamic woofers generally require a port, and the downside is that the port also tends to let outside noise penetrate the CIEM. Examples of this would be UM Merlin and MG6 Pro (I ended up sealing the ports on my MG6Pro because I got sick of the noise penetrating, and also the howling & whistling whenever I was wearing them on a windy day.

I am aware of these ports and I def. don't want them. I read a lot about them, apparently I won't get any ciem which needs ambient port or ventilation port for dynamic driver.

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

 
Great post (as usual).
 
 
I have 3 silicone (4 considering the 2 different SE5s) shelled CIEMs and plenty of acrylic; here are my observations:
- Silicone generally isolates better than acrylic, all things considered, but it is very close (solid acrylic EarSonics vs. similarly sized Minerva)
- Canal length is very important for isolation, and also changes the sound to a degree
- Silicone filled acrylic from M-Fidelity is great for isolation and durability (see my PP6 review for sonic comparisons)
- After repeated use, silicone is as easy for me to insert as acrylic, but I am more careful during removal
- While I have never broke a CIEM (except my SA-12 from sweat at the gym), acrylic does seem to have a durability edge
- Actual amounts of isolation will in part depend on your hearing and anatomy.  Some people have more transmission of sound or "awareness" of sound than others.  I think it may depend upon my ear canal moistness and/or focus.  For example, I can use the same CIEM 2 days in a row and one day I will not hear the phone, yet other days I will be able to barely hear it.  I don't have this completely characterized.
 
I am interested to hear others experiences, especially those with a large number of CIEMs.

So for a beginner like me, acrylic ciem with musicians fit (passes the 2nd bend of the ear canal) should be more than ok and easier to use than silicone ciem I guess. Even though I do want SE5 way I am not sure if it is a perfect choice for a beginner so maybe I should enter to this world with something more common, acrylic shell.

 

[average_joe]

Quote:

So for a beginner like me, acrylic ciem with musicians fit (passes the 2nd bend of the ear canal) should be more than ok and easier to use than silicone ciem I guess. Even though I do want SE5 way I am not sure if it is a perfect choice for a beginner so maybe I should enter to this world with something more common, acrylic shell.

 
I wouldn't say you should be swayed by the silicone, as I find it easy to use, but there will be a slightly longer "getting used to" curve.  Go for what best fits your situation.  I emphasize sound signature the most since the difference in isolation isn't huge unless you have a hollow, thin shelled acrylic CIEM (typically entry level) and in the long run, getting the SS you want typically gives less upgradeitus!

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

 
I wouldn't say you should be swayed by the silicone, as I find it easy to use, but there will be a slightly longer "getting used to" curve.  Go for what best fits your situation.  I emphasize sound signature the most since the difference in isolation isn't huge unless you have a hollow, thin shelled acrylic CIEM (typically entry level) and in the long run, getting the SS you want typically gives less upgradeitus!

That long run will start after I finish my master and get a job 

 Thanks AJ, you are great.
 
I will consider many things before buying and get my first ciems before this summer and then finally I can joing the club 

 

[Barra]

Quote:

Oh also another question, related to isolation.
 
Project86 said once, acrylic and silicone shells isolate more or less same but the frequencies they isolate differs.
 
AJ however, finds silicone shell ciems isolate perfectly and better than common acrylic shell.
 
So there is a big difference or not?
 
Also, for day to day life, does average acrylic shell provides enough isolation? I mean, old busses and their old engines, traffic noise, people talk around you, subways etc etc.

I cannot compare between CIEMs because I only have the NT6 Pro, but when I am up in my office laying in my chair with my eyes closed listening to music, my wife and 2 year old son have to come jump on me to get my attention. Screaming doesn't work. It is almost scary silent, but it allows me to hear the most silent of details. 
 
Hidition is one of the few manufacturers that have you take impressions with your mouth closed and are known for a tight fit. What I didn't know when ordering is that they do a deeper than normal mold as well in their standard build. I say that only based pictures of other CIEMs on the forum so others would have to confirm. I am guessing that this is a so called musicians fit, but again I am no expert. When I insert these CIEM, they lock down tight and take some effort to remove. See picture below:
 

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

I cannot compare between CIEMs because I only have the NT6 Pro, but when I am up in my office laying in my chair with my eyes closed listening to music, my wife and 2 year old son have to come jump on me to get my attention. Screaming doesn't work. It is almost scary silent, but it allows me to hear the most silent of details. 
 
Hidition is one of the few manufacturers that have you take impressions with your mouth closed and are known for a tight fit. What I didn't know when ordering is that they do a deeper than normal mold as well in their standard build. I say that only based pictures of other CIEMs on the forum so others would have to confirm. I am guessing that this is a so called musicians fit, but again I am no expert. When I insert these CIEM, they lock down tight and take some effort to remove. See picture below:
 

Nice pictue and explanation Barra. I also think these called musicians fit, indeed very long canals.
 
How is the comfort btw? Does it cause problem when you move, walk around, look around etc etc?

 

[Marcus Jang]

Nice pictue and explanation Barra. I also think these called musicians fit, indeed very long canals.

How is the comfort btw? Does it cause problem when you move, walk around, look around etc etc?

As a man who have UM Merlin and Hidition NT6, my NT6 also has more tighter fit and longer nozzle than my Merlin. However as they are made from two different ear impressions with some interval between them, it could be just my case.

Anyway, Hidition's tighter fit is not something of discomfort. Today I was on a bus for about 4 hours with my NT6, and I actually fell asleep with them in my ears. Even after that, there were no fatiguing in my ears.

 

[Barra]

Quote:

Nice pictue and explanation Barra. I also think these called musicians fit, indeed very long canals.
 
How is the comfort btw? Does it cause problem when you move, walk around, look around etc etc?

 
I am still getting used to having something inserted that far into my ear, but their is no direct discomfort - just a weird feeling. However, I feel a similar weird feeling with my TF10 universals as well. When inserted, the NT6 Pros fit like a key and screw down tight and will not budge without some effort. I cannot say that I forget that I am wearing them yet, but I can see that happening soon as I get more used to the deep insertion.
 
Probably the greatest concern for me is damaging my hearing because they sound so good with the perfect seal. I want to continuously turn up the volume to keep increasing the detail level. The problem is that there is no distortion to warn you from going too far so I feel like I am walking a tightrope. I am normally a person that likes a low listening level which they sound great as well, but it is like driving a Ferrari down an open secluded desert freeway, you just have to hit the gas to see what happens.
 
The cool thing is that I can jump, run, chew, or anything that would normally break the seal with my TF10s with no issue - just a continuous perfect seal. Now I can hardly stand to wear my TF10s. Not that the TF10s don't sound great with a perfect seal when sitting perfectly still and holding them into my ears, but any movement at all and the seal on the TF10s is lost making them sound like a mono AM radio again. I didn't realize how bad they were until I finally got a perfect seal with the NT6 Pros. The NT6 Pros give me continuous deep rumble and detailed bass no matter what I do to try to break the seal.
 
This is an issue because I want to baby my NT6 Pros and wear my TF10s to jog or to go to the gym. So I am frantically trying every ear tip in existence trying to get a good seal. It isn't working. My last hope are some the Sony Hybrids that were recommended that should be delivered today.
 
Now I feel like I need to get my TF10s remolded - darn it. The bleeding never stops. 

 

[Mimouille]

Thanks Joe for the nice comment, just sharing my short experience.
The true question regarding isolation for me is: what do you need ? Most ciems I tried will block out loud environments when playing dense music, but with music with a lot of silences you will hear the outside...

 

[AmberOzL]

Quote:

Thanks Joe for the nice comment, just sharing my short experience.
The true question regarding isolation for me is: what do you need ? Most ciems I tried will block out loud environments when playing dense music, but with music with a lot of silences you will hear the outside...

What do I need? Well that's a nice question. I need completely to be isolated from my surrounding. No bus/car engine noise, no traffic noise, no tv noise (my girlfriend wathces tv sometimes when we are in the same room), the noise of the chatting people around me... It is like day to day life things but pretty annoying when you can't block them.
 
I really have a feeling like musicians fit acrylic shell ciem do the trick without need of acrylic or silicone shell but we will see I guess. Anyway it will be my first ciem, the opening, then when I become older and all I will have variety of things to compare. There is a lot of time in front of me. Now I feel the first times excitement and the stress of not being able to decide freely.
 
I also thank to Barra for explanation. I think what Hidition does is pretty good. I wonder if customer demands to maximize isolation do they use some technics like acrylic fill or adding more layers of acrylic like UM. I guess I have to shoot them an email.

 

[Mimouille]

Quote:

What do I need? Well that's a nice question. I need completely to be isolated from my surrounding. No bus/car engine noise, no traffic noise, no tv noise (my girlfriend wathces tv sometimes when we are in the same room), the noise of the chatting people around me... It is like day to day life things but pretty annoying when you can't block them.
 
I really have a feeling like musicians fit acrylic shell ciem do the trick without need of acrylic or silicone shell but we will see I guess. Anyway it will be my first ciem, the opening, then when I become older and all I will have variety of things to compare. There is a lot of time in front of me. Now I feel the first times excitement and the stress of not being able to decide freely.
 
I also thank to Barra for explanation. I think what Hidition does is pretty good. I wonder if customer demands to maximize isolation do they use some technics like acrylic fill or adding more layers of acrylic like UM. I guess I have to shoot them an email.

From what Gavin tells me, and he own them ALL, the best he has for isolation are the Fitear...