[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Um I never said the D7000 sounded more organic and natural than anything. If I wanted natural, I'd stick with T1's and forget everything else. I said the D7000s are far superior for fast,aggressive, energetic music to the HD800s, which they are. Getting "T1" bass wouldn't be enough, the T1's bass quantity isn't enough for me anymore going back to Denons. The D7000 is not natural sounding, it is colored, and it is far superior for Metal, Electronic, and the like no matter how you slice it. The HD800 is a neutral but artificial (the soundstage is enormous but not natural) can for Classical and other light genres, while the T1 is neutral and natural. The T1 and HD800 may sound "fine" for Metal, and hell for a while I even thought the T1's were unbelievably amazing for it, and then I slipped on my good ol' Denons and remembered what it was like to really enjoy music. Headphones like the HD800 and T1 do one side of the musical coin very well, and cans like the D7000 do the other side very well.The side the headphones don't do well will always seem good until you hear what the other headphones designed for that side have to say.

Well, I never heard the amazement with my D7000 you get from your D7000 w/ Metal.  I'd say it must come down to tastes then.  Not the first time around here.  Feel free to disregard amp synergy and tube rolling too.  I also don't get how super fast drivers are ideal w/ Jazz either.  I'd prefer the D7000 stock signature for Jazz myself over the stock HD800.  I find Metal and Electronic likes speedy drivers to handle complexities better where slower drivers suffer.  So again, I'd say we have different sonic preferences or just hear differently.  
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

Well, I never heard the amazement with my D7000 you get from your D7000 w/ Metal.  I'd say it must come down to tastes then.  Not the first time around here.  Feel free to disregard amp synergy and tube rolling too.  I also don't get how super fast drivers are ideal w/ Jazz either.  I'd prefer the D7000 stock signature for Jazz myself over the stock HD800.  I find Metal and Electronic likes speedy drivers to handle complexities better where slower drivers suffer.  So again, I'd say we have different sonic preferences or just hear differently.  
 

I'm not sure why you wouldn't LOVE Metal with the Denons, but that's fine, though nevertheless a shame. Denons are plenty fast enough for Metal and Electronic and the bass is heavenly for both. They really are the king of fun. I have yet to try any other headphone that induces irresistible headbanging, though I do have LCD-2's coming in a few days.The Denons do Jazz very well also, though I don't know if better than the T1s and HD800s since I barely listen to the genre. Amp synergy and tube rolling is all well and good, but I'm of the belief that a headphone should sound amazing right from the get-go, and then I am free to expand upon it at my leisure, rather than be forced to make a mediocre sounding headphone sound good by spending more on amps. But yep it's all preference, just use whatever makes you the happiest.
 

 

[bcasey25raptor]

Quote:

I'm not sure why you wouldn't LOVE Metal with the Denons, but that's fine, though nevertheless a shame. Denons are plenty fast enough for Metal and Electronic and the bass is heavenly for both. They really are the king of fun. I have yet to try any other headphone that induces irresistible headbanging, though I do have LCD-2's coming in a few days.The Denons do Jazz very well also, though I don't know if better than the T1s and HD800s since I barely listen to the genre. Amp synergy and tube rolling is all well and good, but I'm of the belief that a headphone should sound amazing right from the get-go, and then I am free to expand upon it at my leisure, rather than be forced to make a mediocre sounding headphone sound good by spending more on amps. But yep it's all preference, just use whatever makes you the happiest.
 

i like my headphones to be neutral for metal. to much bass ruins it for me. i find treble is an important aspect for metal though. my shure srh840 sounds good with metal. more so then my colored bassy pioneer se m390 which give me a headache most of the time. but everyone hears differently.
 
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Amp synergy and tube rolling is all well and good, but I'm of the belief that a headphone should sound amazing right from the get-go, and then I am free to expand upon it at my leisure, rather than be forced to make a mediocre sounding headphone sound good by spending more on amps. But yep it's all preference, just use whatever makes you the happiest.

I completely agree and was of the same school of thought.  I just look at it from a different perspective after that 'wow' moment I had w/ the 800.  When it comes to voicing and signature preference I prefer the D7000 and LCD2 and put the HD800 towards middle to bottom for sonic preference.  The synergy I got was such a revelation that I now believe voicing is secondary to driver performance and capability.  I remember thinking, "wow, this 800 sounds better than anything I've heard so far.  If I get this that means having to build around it."  >.<  I just couldn't get anything else to hit that acoustic G-spot.  

  Without spending 5-10x the money at least...... 

 
I guess I had a sort of paradigm shift.
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

i like my headphones to be neutral for metal. to much bass ruins it for me. i find treble is an important aspect for metal though. my shure srh840 sounds good with metal. more so then my colored bassy pioneer se m390 which give me a headache most of the time. but everyone hears differently.
 
 

After using the T1's for 50 or so hours I've discovered neutral simply does not work for the majority of Metal, and I prefer my Denons so much it's hard to put into words. The only type of Metal I'd give the upper hand to for the T1's is Atmospheric Black Metal, and only because of the soundstage. For anything that isn't all about atmosphere, I don't see how you could possibly prefer neutrality in Metal unless you like to sit back and relax instead of get into it, engage, and enjoy.
 
I find the bass quantity of the Denons to be perfect for Metal. The D2000 tends to overpower by just a little bit, but that's about the worst I can say, and the D7000 is perfect with the bass. Something like the T1's may be punchy and fast but it simply doesn't have enough for Metal. If you listen to some Djent or Groove Metal, for instance, you'll see just how important bass is.
 
Your Pioneer more than likely has way too much bass considering it's a $40 bassy can. Neutral sounds "good" with Metal, but the right colored headphone is on a completely different level. But that's talking high-end, T1/HD800 vs D7000. At your price point I don't know what I'd prefer.

 

[bcasey25raptor]

Quote:

After using the T1's for 50 or so hours I've discovered neutral simply does not work for the majority of Metal, and I prefer my Denons so much it's hard to put into words. The only type of Metal I'd give the upper hand to for the T1's is Atmospheric Black Metal, and only because of the soundstage. For anything that isn't all about atmosphere, I don't see how you could possibly prefer neutrality in Metal unless you like to sit back and relax instead of get into it, engage, and enjoy.
 
I find the bass quantity of the Denons to be perfect for Metal. The D2000 tends to overpower by just a little bit, but that's about the worst I can say, and the D7000 is perfect with the bass. Something like the T1's may be punchy and fast but it simply doesn't have enough for Metal. If you listen to some Djent or Groove Metal, for instance, you'll see just how important bass is.
 
Your Pioneer more than likely has way too much bass considering it's a $40 bassy can. Neutral sounds "good" with Metal, but the right colored headphone is on a completely different level. But that's talking high-end, T1/HD800 vs D7000. At your price point I don't know what I'd prefer.

well one of these days i will try one of those colored cans made for metal. currently im to cheap. and i am satisfied.
 
edit: i noticed your avatar is an opeth album. well opeth is one of the bands that sounds absolutely phenomenal on my headphones.

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

I completely agree and was of the same school of thought.  I just look at it from a different perspective after that 'wow' moment I had w/ the 800.  When it comes to voicing and signature preference I prefer the D7000 and LCD2 and put the HD800 towards middle to bottom for sonic preference.  The synergy I got was such a revelation that I now believe voicing is secondary to driver performance and capability.  I remember thinking, "wow, this 800 sounds better than anything I've heard so far.  If I get this that means having to build around it."  >.<  I just couldn't get anything else to hit that acoustic G-spot.  

  Without spending 5-10x the money at least...... 

 
I guess I had a sort of paradigm shift.
 

I really don't doubt for a second that the HD800 are the best dynamic cans for acoustic music. Or Classical in general. Or Light Rock... you get the idea

 
But man believe me, with Metal there's just such a profound difference. You go from sitting back and enjoying to uncontrollable headbanging and incredible involvement. With a neutral setup it sounds "right" and nothing particularly stands out, and that seems perfect until you see what an energetic can does to your music. I just can't imagine anyone sitting down and listening to Metal with an HD800/T1 and then a D2000/D7000/etc and telling me they enjoy Metal more with the former cans UNLESS it's purely atmospheric Metal, which gets the nod from neutral cans only because they have better soundstage. But for the VAST majority of Metal, and even atmospheric once the instruments kick in, I still choose the Denons. I can't wait for my LCD-2's to arrive, I expect great things in this regard.
 
And I'll always believe signature>everything else. I don't care what technical specs you throw at me, if I don't enjoy the signature that's that. Now once I get that signature that I love, THEN improvement upon technical specs would be wonderful. That's what happened for me with the D2K>D7K. And yet I still love both.

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

well one of these days i will try one of those colored cans made for metal. currently im to cheap. and i am satisfied.
 
edit: i noticed your avatar is an opeth album. well opeth is one of the bands that sounds absolutely phenomenal on my headphones.

I made a post earlier when I was really loving my T1's that Opeth sounds unbelievable on them. The sections with acoustics and clean vocals are incredible on the T1s, but for heavier songs, especially from Blackwater Park and Still Life, the Denons are still far superior, and only a bit worse for the lighter albums.
 

 

[bcasey25raptor]

Quote:

I made a post earlier when I was really loving my T1's that Opeth sounds unbelievable on them. The sections with acoustics and clean vocals are incredible on the T1s, but for heavier songs, especially from Blackwater Park and Still Life, the Denons are still far superior, and only a bit worse for the lighter albums.
 

songs from blackwater park for example the funeral portrait sound amazing. as does ghost of perdition and beneath the mire from ghost reveries. and the older albums from the 1990s example still life and morningrise never cease to amaze me. if what you say is true i can't wait to try myself some colored headphones for metal. btw i still get huge head banging enjoyment out of my shure srh840. and i am a huge metalhead as 90% of my music is a form of metal in one shape or another.
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

Now once I get that signature that I love, THEN improvement upon technical specs would be wonderful. 

Right but you can't really improve a high end driver beyond some minor user doping or modding.  On the other hand I can tweak a signature w/ amps and tubes or even other means.  I liked the HE6, LCD2, D7K signatures but there were technical 'issues' I couldn't think I'd resolve to my preferences.  I liked the HD800 signature less but it gobbled up every genre and synergy I could throw at it w/o a hiccup.  Color is easier to attain then technical performance IMO.  Believe me, I am more of the slightly colored 'natural' sounding school then the analytical 'neutral' school.  
 
I wonder, is the glass half full or half empty?  

  
 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

Right but you can't really improve a high end driver beyond some minor user doping or modding.  On the other hand I can tweak a signature w/ amps and tubes or even other means.  I liked the HE6, LCD2, D7K signatures but there were technical 'issues' I couldn't think I'd resolve to my preferences.  I liked the HD800 signature less but it gobbled up every genre and synergy I could throw at it w/o a hiccup.  Color is easier to attain then technical performance IMO.  Believe me, I am more of the slightly colored 'natural' sounding school then the analytical 'neutral' school.  
 
I wonder, is the glass half full or half empty?  

  
 

I was more referring to upgrading models, like D2000>7000. You can tweak a signature with amps and tubes but you can't completely change it, and besides you're going to be tweaking it towards a signature that another brand of headphone likely has, so why not get that instead and save tons of money and trouble? Then take that signature and improve the general sound with high end equipment. I guess if you're unlucky enough to not find a signature you love, your route would be the way to go. My only technical issue with the D7000 is lacking soundstage and a VERY slightly recessed midrange. But both of these are more signature characteristic than technical issue... it's a closed can, and the bass is powerful. I haven't found a colored but natural sounding headphone, however. The T1's really blew my mind with how natural they sounded, and they're neutral. Technical performance overall just seems like a moot point to me. I'm spending big money to enjoy my music even more, what does it matter what the drivers are made of? As long as the sound itself allows me to enjoy my music more, which is entirely dependent on signature before all else, why would I complain about driver size, position, frequency response, etc?


Quote:

songs from blackwater park for example the funeral portrait sound amazing. as does ghost of perdition and beneath the mire from ghost reveries. and the older albums from the 1990s example still life and morningrise never cease to amaze me. if what you say is true i can't wait to try myself some colored headphones for metal. btw i still get huge head banging enjoyment out of my shure srh840. and i am a huge metalhead as 90% of my music is a form of metal in one shape or another.
 

I can see myself headbanging with the T1's if I had never heard the Denons, but you know... "you don't know what you've got till it's gone". Just hurry up and cop yourself some D2000s

 

 

[Anaxilus]

Well, I hear technical issues w/ the D7000, HE6, LCD2 and that prevented me from enjoying them as much.  Those were issues that can't be fixed and I'm not willing to deal with at the price.  I'd rather roll tubes than keep 5 different headphones around.  Hearing the 800 turn into a better ortho than the LCD2 or HE6 sealed the deal for me.  So I disagree that you can't change a phones character.  It's the technical ability of the driver that allows such flexibility and most phones out there can't do that at all.  I'm simply not going to pay close to 4 figures or beyond for a phone that lacks refinement and has problems resolving a recording properly.  By the way, my thoughts and impressions were formed from ABing directly not by looking at charts first.  It wasn't until I was surprised at how well the 800 sounded and performed by comparison I looked into trying to figure out why.  Until you hear it w/ the right synergy I might as well be speaking Farsi because it's simply hard to comprehend how the 800 doesn't sound analytical, thin, overly bright, etc. until then.   
 
As for coloration, obviously I'm talking a very fine line here.  Beyer, Senn, Audeze, etc all offer their interpretation of neutral and are really various forms of coloration relative to each other.  What true 'neutral' is is up for debate when sound travels from transducer to brain and considering everything in your chain.  I know people that consider the T1's treble to be colored or 'boosted' so it's relative.  Your neutral is another's colored sound.  Oh well.  All that matters is we enjoy our phones. 

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

Well, I hear technical issues w/ the D7000, HE6, LCD2 and that prevented me from enjoying them as much.  Those were issues that can't be fixed and I'm not willing to deal with at the price.  I'd rather roll tubes than keep 5 different headphones around.  Hearing the 800 turn into a better ortho than the LCD2 or HE6 sealed the deal for me.  So I disagree that you can't change a phones character.  It's the technical ability of the driver that allows such flexibility and most phones out there can't do that at all.  I'm simply not going to pay close to 4 figures or beyond for a phone that lacks refinement and has problems resolving a recording properly.  By the way, my thoughts and impressions were formed from ABing directly not by looking at charts first.  It wasn't until I was surprised at how well the 800 sounded and performed by comparison I looked into trying to figure out why.  Until you hear it w/ the right synergy I might as well be speaking Farsi because it's simply hard to comprehend how the 800 doesn't sound analytical, thin, overly bright, etc. until then.   
 
As for coloration, obviously I'm talking a very fine line here.  Beyer, Senn, Audeze, etc all offer their interpretation of neutral and are really various forms of coloration relative to each other.  What true 'neutral' is is up for debate when sound travels from transducer to brain and considering everything in your chain.  I know people that consider the T1's treble to be colored or 'boosted' so it's relative.  Your neutral is another's colored sound.  Oh well.  All that matters is we enjoy our phones. 

Well there are many people like myself that are not bothered by the D7000's supposed "technical issues". And I don't need to keep 5 headphones around, in fact this whole quest of mine is about finding just one can for myself. But I get that you love the HD800 after experimenting with amps, that's great and I hope you continue to enjoy them. I personally don't want to go through all this trouble to make a $1400 phone sound like I want it to when a $250 phone nails it for me and it's $1000 brother is an improvement to the sound I love. I have no qualms spending that much for the orgasmic sound I derive from them. As for neutral, I don't enjoy it for my music and I certainly don't enjoy it for gaming and movies where bass impact is huge. But it's all personal; had the K701's been my first true headphone instead of the D2000, I'd probably be saying the opposite. But I'm wholeheartedly glad I'm not. May we all enjoy what we love and forget all else.
 

 

[Anaxilus]

Well said.  

 

[b0ck3n]

The last couple of pages have been an interesting read, and it seems I have to add the D7000 to my shortlist. 'Still Life' is my favourite album, and if a full-size can bring out the organic and impactful sound of that recording that my ES5s can, I'm sold. I get most of my alone time early in the morning before work, and closed cans would allow for loud level listening without waking the kids up.

I'm of the same mind as Anaxilus and prioritize driver capability though. I've done some recording in my time and as such I'm certainly no stranger to EQ. The 800s are fast, clean and sport huge diaphragms that have the potential to portray the low end in spectacular fashion and move huge amounts of air, even if it's not tuned to do so in its original state.

So as to not stray completely off topic, I'll add that I found the JH16 demo overrated. Just not the kind of resolving ability you'd expect at that price point.