[Pianist]

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I agree, i fall into the prefer re0 camp, a minority perhaps?
 
I am looking for an upgrade to the re0/zero.  The re400 seems from what i have read to be similar to the re0/zero with more bass (sounds like i would like it), but also seems to not have as much detail compared to HF5.
 
Im deciding between ER4 vs re272, lots of people in this thread are very happy with re272, i am wondering if these people have compared it to the ER4 and prefer which one and why?

 
I personally prefer Etymotic ER4. I also prefer a number of other IEMs to the RE272, including their less expensive brother RE262. I found RE272 sound somewhat lacking in definition and they also don't image very well. With RE272, I could hear lots of detail, but had a hard time identifying where exactly many sounds were coming from in the soundstage. Some people are OK with a presentation like this, but in my case, it makes me lose focus on the music which I find frustrating since I usually like to listen carefully and to analyze what I hear. The soundstage also lacks depth with RE272 - it is quite wide, but there is little forward projection. RE262 suffers from similar issues, but to a lesser extent - I find RE262 sound a little more defined and three dimensional. Personally, I favor the sharper, clearer, more precise sound of good single driver balanced armature IEMs like Etymotic HF series, ER4 and Phonak PFE, although balanced armature designs have their own issues, such as a lack of natural uppermost treble extension and treble smoothness than the good dynamic drivers are capable of. Armatures also tend to lack some depth to the sound, but can make up for it with very sharp imaging and great separation of sounds.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

 
I personally prefer Etymotic ER4. I also prefer a number of other IEMs to the RE272, including their less expensive brother RE262. I found RE272 sound somewhat lacking in definition and they also don't image very well. With RE272, I could hear lots of detail, but had a hard time identifying where exactly many sounds were coming from in the soundstage. Some people are OK with a presentation like this, but in my case, it makes me lose focus on the music which I find frustrating since I usually like to listen carefully and to analyze what I hear. The soundstage also lacks depth with RE272 - it is quite wide, but there is little forward projection. RE262 suffers from similar issues, but to a lesser extent - I find RE262 sound a little more defined and three dimensional. Personally, I favor the sharper, clearer, more precise sound of good single driver balanced armature IEMs like Etymotic HF series, ER4 and Phonak PFE, although balanced armature designs have their own issues, such as a lack of natural uppermost treble extension and treble smoothness than the good dynamic drivers are capable of. Armatures also tend to lack some depth to the sound, but can make up for it with very sharp imaging and great separation of sounds.

 
I have the opposite impression. I have a hard time on ER4S soundstage and flat imaging but find RE272 to be great on both aspects. ER4S on C421 is another story - the amp deep layer prefected ER4S shortcoming. But then again, RE272 with Stepdance still pulls ahead slightly.

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

 
I have the opposite impression. I have a hard time on ER4S soundstage and flat imaging but find RE272 to be great on both aspects. ER4S on C421 is another story - the amp deep layer prefected ER4S shortcoming. But then again, RE272 with Stepdance still pulls ahead slightly.

 
I don't know. I just feel ER4 sounds more precise than RE272. Balanced armatures in general are more precise than most dynamics IMO. There are few, if any dynamic IEMs and few full sized cans that can match the precision of even entry level BAs like Super.fi 3 or UE600. The really good dynamics like Beyer DT series, T1, HD800, HD650 and the likes can come close or match that level or precision, but I think RE272 driver isn't quite at that level. But anyway - RE272 has advantages over ER4 for sure, like the much better extended and smoother treble, and maybe better dynamics, but overall I find ER4 the more transparent and honest sounding IEM. I find that ER4 changes more from source to source than RE272 did. With the Etys, I can clearly tell the difference between my HM-601 and the lesser DAPs for example, while RE272 sounded very similar out of HM-601 to how it sounded from a Clip for instance, except for the more rolled off treble on HM-601. The higher impedance RE262 revealed a greater difference, but not by much. ER4 really benefits from better sources though. Or maybe it's just a matter of synergy - not sure. Anyhow, ER4S sounds quite a bit better out of HM-601 than RE272 did.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

 
I don't know. I just feel ER4 sounds more precise than RE272. Balanced armatures in general are more precise than most dynamics IMO. There are few, if any dynamic IEMs and few full sized cans that can match the precision of even entry level BAs like Super.fi 3 or UE600. The really good dynamics like Beyer DT series, T1, HD800, HD650 and the likes can come close or match that level or precision, but I think RE272 driver isn't quite at that level. But anyway - RE272 has advantages over ER4 for sure, like the much better extended and smoother treble, and maybe better dynamics, but overall I find ER4 the more transparent and honest sounding IEM. I find that ER4 changes more from source to source than RE272 did. With the Etys, I can clearly tell the difference between my HM-601 and the lesser DAPs for example, while RE272 sounded very similar out of HM-601 to how it sounded from a Clip for instance, except for the more rolled off treble on HM-601. The higher impedance RE262 revealed a greater difference, but not by much. ER4 really benefits from better sources though. Or maybe it's just a matter of synergy - not sure. Anyhow, ER4S sounds quite a bit better out of HM-601 than RE272 did.

 
Perhaps you mean speed as part of BA precision, then I can understand. That's something BA will always be better at. But on the other hand, dynamic has more natural decay, which is something BA isn't quite as good on. As for how they react to source - I agree to an extent, but I see it differently as I tend to think it is just BA tendency to be more picky on the source (and synergy plays a part), though not necessary make it better. I guess we just see the same things on different angles.

 

[hydralisk01]

Thanks guys for helping, i think at the end of the day, i really need to hear them both before choosing one.  I find that headfiers usually dont own both but choose one based on personal preference and depends a lot on what else they have.
 
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/575188/re272-review-and-comparisons-to-er-4p-hd650-ath-ck10-ie8
 

 
Thanks, this is helpful, but i find this review presents the re272 as much better than the ER4, and there are quite a few people in agreement!
 
Quote:

 
I personally prefer Etymotic ER4. I also prefer a number of other IEMs to the RE272, including their less expensive brother RE262. I found RE272 sound somewhat lacking in definition and they also don't image very well. With RE272, I could hear lots of detail, but had a hard time identifying where exactly many sounds were coming from in the soundstage. Some people are OK with a presentation like this, but in my case, it makes me lose focus on the music which I find frustrating since I usually like to listen carefully and to analyze what I hear. The soundstage also lacks depth with RE272 - it is quite wide, but there is little forward projection. RE262 suffers from similar issues, but to a lesser extent - I find RE262 sound a little more defined and three dimensional. Personally, I favor the sharper, clearer, more precise sound of good single driver balanced armature IEMs like Etymotic HF series, ER4 and Phonak PFE, although balanced armature designs have their own issues, such as a lack of natural uppermost treble extension and treble smoothness than the good dynamic drivers are capable of. Armatures also tend to lack some depth to the sound, but can make up for it with very sharp imaging and great separation of sounds.

 
I prefer the re0 over the re262, so i think i prefer analytical over warm and sweet. When you mention that you "favor the sharper, clearer, more precise sound of good single driver balanced armature IEMs"  im even more interested in trying ER4.  However, you liking re262 over re272 confuses me, because from my reading i thought the re272 sounds more like the re0 than the re262.  I am concerned that the ER4 may be too sharp, too clear, too precise - when i heard the TF10 and UE700 i thought the treble was a bit too piercing to my ears.
 
 

 
I have the opposite impression. I have a hard time on ER4S soundstage and flat imaging but find RE272 to be great on both aspects. ER4S on C421 is another story - the amp deep layer prefected ER4S shortcoming. But then again, RE272 with Stepdance still pulls ahead slightly.

 
Interesting, I have the c421 and was planning to pair it with re272. 

 

[dleblanc343]

I don't know. I just feel ER4 sounds more precise than RE272. Balanced armatures in general are more precise than most dynamics IMO. There are few, if any dynamic IEMs and few full sized cans that can match the precision of even entry level BAs like Super.fi 3 or UE600. The really good dynamics like Beyer DT series, T1, HD800, HD650 and the likes can come close or match that level or precision, but I think RE272 driver isn't quite at that level.

I'm sorry, but the T1 and HD800 absolutely demolish most balanced armatures on all fronts. I don't know what makes you say such a statement...

 

[Swimsonny]

agree completely, that statement is OTT.

 

[Pianist]

Quote:

I'm sorry, but the T1 and HD800 absolutely demolish most balanced armatures on all fronts. I don't know what makes you say such a statement...

 
Well, it's just my opinion based on listening and also by looking at measurements. Good BA based IEMs can measure exceptionally well - just check out the graphs at Innerfidelity. Does it mean they also sound exceptional? Not necessarily, but it can't be denied that graphs do tell us quite a bit about the sound quality, even if it's not the whole story. I don't have a lot of experience with T1 and HD800 - I only listened to those briefly. I do own HE-500 and HD650 which I also consider pretty high end cans, especially the HE-500. Comparing these two cans against my PFE and ER4 does not yield any clear winner to my ears. Ok, I think HE-500 does take the cake in most aspects, but ER4S is really not that far behind at all. Compared to HD650, I think ER4S may be the better sounding 'phone in most aspects. PFE is behind the rest, but the difference is not night and day or anything - PFE is still one of the best headphones I ever heard and can actually do some music (some well recorded instrumental tracks) better for my tastes than HE-500 and HD650. With some music, I just find the balance of the Phonaks superior to that of HD650 and HE-500, as well as ER4. PFE has a balance between smoothness and detail that others can't quite match IMO.
 
Quote:

agree completely, that statement is OTT.

 
You heard T1 and HD800 right? I assume that you also heard Etymotic ER4.
 
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I prefer the re0 over the re262, so i think i prefer analytical over warm and sweet. When you mention that you "favor the sharper, clearer, more precise sound of good single driver balanced armature IEMs"  im even more interested in trying ER4.  However, you liking re262 over re272 confuses me, because from my reading i thought the re272 sounds more like the re0 than the re262.  I am concerned that the ER4 may be too sharp, too clear, too precise - when i heard the TF10 and UE700 i thought the treble was a bit too piercing to my ears.

 
I also prefer RE0 over RE262/272 overall, but RE0 has a very significant problem with the sound and that is a lack of dynamic range. This basically makes it impossible for me to enjoy with most classical and a lot of instrumental music where dynamics are important. If RE400 has better dynamics while maintaining a sound signature close to that of RE0, then I will be all over RE400.
 
ER4 may be too sharp and precise for you - it is for many people. I don't mind the analytical presentation of the ER4, and I don't mind their balance armature aggression in the treble. If you are very treble sensitive, balanced armatures are probably not for you. Although for a decent balance between smoothness and sharpness, Phonak PFE may suit many people well. I personally find the treble on teh PFE to be even harsher than on the ER4 though, but it's fine with a bit of equalization applied. What really does it for me with balanced armatures is the amazing speed precision that the drivers are capable of, which give a sense of immediacy and realism that most dynamic headphones don't have. RE0 is fairly close to the BA levels of precision - close enough to forget about the differences after a while if you only listen to RE0. If RE0 had better dynamics, I might not want balanced armatures any more. I am hoping that RE400 or RE600 might be the one to do it for me - I've always wanted an IEM that could combine the best qualities of BAs and dynamics.

 

[gnarlsagan]

Quote:

I prefer the re0 over the re262, so i think i prefer analytical over warm and sweet. When you mention that you "favor the sharper, clearer, more precise sound of good single driver balanced armature IEMs"  im even more interested in trying ER4.  However, you liking re262 over re272 confuses me, because from my reading i thought the re272 sounds more like the re0 than the re262.  I am concerned that the ER4 may be too sharp, too clear, too precise - when i heard the TF10 and UE700 i thought the treble was a bit too piercing to my ears.
 

 
The ER4S doesn't have the treble peak that the TF10 and UE700 have. It is much smoother treble than those and most other BA's, especially TWFK's which usually have the peak. It is also possible to modify the ER4 with different filters that will attenuate the treble to different degrees depending on the filter. The ER4 comes with a filter changing tool  and extra filters as well, so this process is totally easy. 
 
Tbh everyone says the treble on the hifiman's is smooth and extended but I very much disagree, based on listening and what is clearly shown in graphs. I predicted a non-linear treble before the graphs for the RE0 were available, and that is exactly what was found. The 262 and 272 don't look much better, with sizable dips above 5kHz. To my ears this correlates to a lack of treble information that can be clearly heard.

 

[AstralStorm]

as much as I love my 262, I wanted to buy the 400 but had to return the 262 because no sound was coming from the right sidw. now with the brabd new ser I received by mail, The right side is very low compared tothe left side! i just dont want to return them avain, no more hifiman for me

 
This sounds like either a broken cable or a broken driver. The former is more common in these, but not in a brand new pair. Likely the driver had the flimsy tiny coil wires broken.

 

[AstralStorm]

 
The ER4S doesn't have the treble peak that the TF10 and UE700 have. It is much smoother treble than those and most other BA's, especially TWFK's which usually have the peak. It is also possible to modify the ER4 with different filters that will attenuate the treble to different degrees depending on the filter. The ER4 comes with a filter changing tool  and extra filters as well, so this process is totally easy. 
 
Tbh everyone says the treble on the hifiman's is smooth and extended but I very much disagree, based on listening and what is clearly shown in graphs. I predicted a non-linear treble before the graphs for the RE0 were available, and that is exactly what was found. The 262 and 272 don't look much better, with sizable dips above 5kHz. To my ears this correlates to a lack of treble information that can be clearly heard.

 
Suprisingly though, those "sizable dips" aren't actually in the region you mention in RE0. The main dip is at 2k, the other at 8k. The too shallow 6k cut gives the soundstaging its flatness and sound its dryness. It's meant for a slightly different HRTF and still fails at that. RE-ZERO is similar, but much smoother at the highest end (>10k) and much more reverberating. No 6k bump I can hear there. Much better dynamics as well - RE0 seems to get overdriven easily at loud volumes and is higher distortion.
What you said does describe RE262/272 though perfectly - although my hearing apparently does require the 6k/12k dips, these also have some sharp dips at 2k, 4k and a highest end shelf. (like most everything out there) Also some bass drop.

 

[Zida]

Do we have anyone that can compare the re400 to the CK10?

 

[gnarlsagan]

Suprisingly though, those "sizable dips" aren't actually in the region you mention in RE0. The main dip is at 2k, the other at 8k. The too shallow 6k cut gives the soundstaging its flatness and sound its dryness.RE-ZERO is similar, but much smoother at the highest end and much more reverberating. No 6k bump I can hear there. Much better dynamics as well - RE0 seems to get overdriven easily at loud volumes and is higher distortion.
What you said does describe RE262/272 though perfectly - although my hearing apparently does require the 6k/12k dips, these also have some sharp dips at 2k, 4k and a highest end shelf. (like most everything out there) Also some bass drop.

You mean the graph here: http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2013/01/hifiman-re-0.html?m=1

The first dip is after 2k but the dips at 8 and 12k are deeper.

 

[AstralStorm]

More or less, yes. Actually I thought of this reference chart: from Sonove. Seems Udauda also measured RE-ZERO. The mids on RE-ZERO are free from the dryness, but instead the decay is much longer. 00% the effect of undampened metal case. I find this pattern to sound better than the clearly audible ringing of RE0.
Signatures are very similar. Removal of the filter lifts 4k and smoothens out the reverb/ringing, but increases peaks - it's then better controlled with an equalizer though.

 

[Swimsonny]

Quote:

Do we have anyone that can compare the re400 to the CK10?

mak2410