Grado modders go Magnum
Jan 19, 2012 at 9:24 PM Post #902 of 4,994
Jan 19, 2012 at 9:41 PM Post #903 of 4,994
Actually, grado house sound probably isn't a productive phrase, the sounds are cup dependent as well as driver. But I can say, grado sound can also be heard in their TT carts. They have the same bullshIIt ascending series/line nonsense with them, but they all have a certain airy quality with a slightly bloated upper bass and a semi-hot quality in the uppers. So I'd go beyond their headphones and say their cartridges have a sound similar. whatever it may be. And I do not hear it in my magnums in limba. That's about all I can say to that.
 
I'm not interested in graphs at this point in my investigation, are those measurements of the driver suspended in mid air? or in mahogany? plastic? who knows. I agree a magnum has more in common with a grado rs driver than a beyer driver for example. But to my ears a magnum even has qualities that remind of senn 650 as much or more than grado rs. 
 
If you're memory of all those wood cups leads you to the conclusion that they all sounded similar with subtle differences, does that include the mahogany even? The other woods are not a surprise to me that they sound similar, as they are all super hard exotics that impart very similar and in my experience damaging affects to magnums. And depending on the finish, they could ALL sound similar. A finish has the potential of negating the effect of the wood's qualities. You may have hear 4 different cups, but one sound. the finish. My experiments with wood and finish lead me to totally different conclusions and has a much greater affect. But as you said before, it may be just a difference in degree. To me some seemingly subtle things are super critical while others are not. But wood cups in general, unless they all share an invasive finish technique, tend to sound quite different, some taking away and some benfiting the magnum.
 
 
 
Jan 19, 2012 at 10:14 PM Post #904 of 4,994
Yeah, I didn't mean for my interjection to go on such a tangent. I was mainly hoping to encourage anyone that enjoys the Grado sound to try to hear some Magnums. They are greatly improved over the Grados that I've heard. 
 
On the topic of tone wood differences, when I A/B'd my SR60s in Sapelle vs. Kneeljung's SR60s in African Blackwood -- the most noticeable difference was felt in the lower regions. The African Blackwood had a heftier, punchier low-end that filled in the spectrum moreso than the Sapelle, which sounded thinner and more "brittle". The mids sounded fuller as a result, as well. Not sure if this is solely a result of the wood, because the cups were different shapes. The Blackwood cups had thicker walls, and were slightly deeper (if I remember correctly) -- and I'd imagine that contributes to the sound differences just as much as the density of the wood. 
 
Jan 19, 2012 at 10:50 PM Post #905 of 4,994
yes, that is my experience too, the shape and overall volume of the cup and even the exit hole size play a role in shaping the sound in some way...........I think this has been a fruitful little discussion frankly. Still, I don't think everyone can agree on whether the mag and grado share enough qualities or not, but certainly they have something in common, and I will try to clarify by saying I feel the mags take the best of grado and leave the rest. This is then combined with the best of senn 600/650 and leaves the rest ........the best of grado to my ears is the presentation and truness of the sound, not the e.q. but the delivery of sound. The mags to me take the general e/q of the senn ( i know the graphs may not tell us this though) and leaves the distant and somewhat murky veiled presentaion. This is what makes the mag special,  and even more so if careful attention is given to it's house, not just the cup but the finish (whether it's metal or wood - even the aluminum has a finish on it)...........
 
To those who want to know how a magnum can compare to other currently available brands, maybe the above will help them understand. I am not not first or the last to makes comparisons to sennheiser and other grados, but maybe it adds something to the discussion
 
I can also say that the magnum in limba especially is my favorite and that such a headphone sounds quite similar to an hf2. The difference being the hf2 sound is slightly less colored (i.e. more grey) and comes shooting out from a darker, almost black background. The magnums sound is slightly more colored in a musical way and comes shooting out from a super clear open background which is what people are referring to when they say it has great instrument separation, imo. To my ears, the foreground is made clearer because of the clear background. Which is a kind of gestaltian phenomenon for those who are psycholgicaly or philosophically familar with gestalt theory or eastern religious theory that emphasizes the importance of the background in giving the foreground it's qualities.
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 12:44 AM Post #908 of 4,994
Just when y'all thought we were done talking about cups, the wood used, the effects on sound, etc. -- I catch up to this thread and start reading after the conversation has stopped.  
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In regards to the Cabillas' cups when they were available, I remember having an e-mail conversation with him in regards to the two types of wood used, and Grado drivers at the time - no Magnums.  According to Cabillas, the Iroko was able to dig a bit deeper when it came to bass than the Sapele.  Again, though, this was just a slight variation that he indicated could be detected.  Please keep in mind, there could be a lot of other variables at play in that picture (driver variation, etc.).  However, one thing is certain - the cup sizes, wall thicknesses, outer holes, etc. were all cut the same on the Sapele and the Iroko cups.
 
 
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 1:14 AM Post #909 of 4,994
the discussion should be considered just starting imo. there is so much more to it than that. these accounts of woods in the past have no details such as finish treatments. Either type or method of application. To comment on a wood and not state how it was treated is almost meaningless. If two woods have the same finish treatment that happens to be an invasive one, no one should be surprised if only minor differences are heard such as ' a touch more bass extension'......this would lead a casual reader to assume, well see woods really aren't that different. The only way to gain knowledge about woods is to listen to them raw and play with different finish treatments.......that way one can hear the raw wood and the affect of one finish, or another finish........to make this more palpable. I saturated a limba cup with oil, essentially filling it through and through. I have also wiped on the same oil, but thin, inside and out, wait for it to dry, apply some more but after the first coat has dried, the remaining coats simply build up on the outside, effectively making a cup that is sandwiched with a light finish. meaning a thin layer on the outside of cup, raw wood inner meat and another thin layer on the inside of the cup................result, the two cups sound dramatically different. The latter method now being my preferred method for that particular oil........as you can see, this goes far beyond the anecdotal and murky reports in the past. And this is just one example. Imagine the number of types of finishes that are available and the ways they can be applied, multiply these by the types of woods and one has a permutation of many different results that truly affect sound.......poly, tung oil, varnish, shelac, etc  ........this is the beginning if you guys really want to dial in a magnum. In order to reduce the task to one that is more do-able, I first listened to a dozen woods raw, took the one that was obviously most synergystic with magnums to my ears, and then started the process of further dialing in that wood by finish treatment experimentation. Did cabillas ever spend this energy on the process and report any findings?  If so, they didn't spill any beans. I doubt they/he or anyone else has even begun this process. Although rhydon has found that the finish matters and has apparently spent time dialing in those aluminum cups. Other wood cup makers seem to have taken a cosmetics first approach and with crossed fingers let the chips fall where they may hope it sounds good if not who cares it's sold to someone else approach.
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 4:28 AM Post #910 of 4,994
It's a matter of demand and supply. When everybody wants fancy looks, MOTs will provide this. Customers will be happy looking at their headphones and certainly enjoy the Magnum sound in whatever wood because they lack the opportunity of A/B-ing their drivers in different woods and finishes. Not to mention the risks one is taking when repeatedly soldering and desoldering the drivers.
It always takes 'fanatic' people who are interested in research and subtle differences/changes/improvements to gain more insight into and understanding of a certain topic. thelostMIDrange obviously being such a guy certainly contributes interesting insights and impressions that I appreciate.
Personally I have tried the Mags in plastic, aluminum, wood and hybrid setups. There were sound differences, though subtle. I won't go into detail, because people use different words for the same things and interpret words differently drawing the wrong conclusions and seeing their expectations unfulfilled.I have found myself to be a 'wood guy'. Speaking of wood, some of my fancy wood shells, including Cocobolo, are resting in peace in the cupboard. They still look fancy, but they don't sound as good (subtly!) as other woods.
There is the chance that further discussion, but more importantly more experiments by guys like thelostMIDrange and their results, will help us to even further improve the sound coming from the Mags we are already enjoying.
Just one thing I want to add. I would really like to work on the PAD aspect. There is so much potential in that topic. Just look at the important role different pads play when modding Fostex T50rp's. I have come up with totally Grado-free setups. Don't get me wrong, I am not proud of this fact, I simply did not want to spend any money on a Grado to use the parts.The only thing I cannot do without so far are the pads. And I want to change that!! So, how about doing some experimenting on pads (either self-made or taken from other headphones) to tackle that problem? Any suggestions, experiences, ideas?
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 1:53 PM Post #911 of 4,994


Quote:
Pardon all, but what earpads would you recommend to go with the magnum v4s?


Also, don't be afraid to experiment.  Pads are not a major cost in many cases.  Another option would be the Sennheiser HD-414 pad option with the "reverse-quarter" modification applied.  That's how I'm running both of my Magnums at the current moment.  The comfort is there for me and the sound is just right, too.
 
But, there have been a few of us who tried the TTVJ "Flats" with the Magnums and thought the sound was too dark.  The "Flats" really laid down a deep level of something that really killed the mid and higher end details.  However, there's been another member that has liked the TTVJ "Flats" with the Magnums - so, keep in mind pad choices can be suggested, but it's your ears that will be the ultimate decider when it comes to sound and comfort for you at the personal level.
 
Enjoy!
 
 
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 2:12 PM Post #912 of 4,994


 
I am the member Wayne is referring to. He gave me his set free of charge and I love the flats with my grados. They are somewhat on the bassy side to me but I listen to music where the bass lines  are the driving force to the tracks. The only pads I did not love were the jumbos. They were to distant to me. I would only use them when the bowls irritated my anti-helix.  
Quote:
Also, don't be afraid to experiment.  Pads are not a major cost in many cases.  Another option would be the Sennheiser HD-414 pad option with the "reverse-quarter" modification applied.  That's how I'm running both of my Magnums at the current moment.  The comfort is there for me and the sound is just right, too.
 
But, there have been a few of us who tried the TTVJ "Flats" with the Magnums and thought the sound was too dark.  The "Flats" really laid down a deep level of something that really killed the mid and higher end details.  However, there's been another member that has liked the TTVJ "Flats" with the Magnums - so, keep in mind pad choices can be suggested, but it's your ears that will be the ultimate decider when it comes to sound and comfort for you at the personal level.
 
Enjoy!
 
 



 
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 2:32 PM Post #913 of 4,994


Quote:
Just one thing I want to add. I would really like to work on the PAD aspect. There is so much potential in that topic. Just look at the important role different pads play when modding Fostex T50rp's. I have come up with totally Grado-free setups. Don't get me wrong, I am not proud of this fact, I simply did not want to spend any money on a Grado to use the parts.The only thing I cannot do without so far are the pads. And I want to change that!! So, how about doing some experimenting on pads (either self-made or taken from other headphones) to tackle that problem? Any suggestions, experiences, ideas?


 
I may have already posted this in here before, but here's what I did to my SR60s and I love it.
 



 
I used the bowl pads and basically turned them into jumbos (I think - I've never used jumbos before) by wrapping a rolled up sock over them. It was super easy and 1000 times more comfortable to the point where I almost don't even feel them. They isolate the sound much better and tighten up the bass in comparison with the bowls and to me they sound much better. After I put these on I realized what you guys meant by "darkening" the sound because that's what these do. 
 
To make them you just take a *comfortable* tube sock and cut of the tube part right above the heel, so you have the tube part of the sock. Starting from where you cut it off, roll it up until you have about 1-1/2" left so you can wrap the elastic end around the bowl pad so it will stay on. And then mess around with them a little bit so that they fit right. If you need me to explain it better or even do a video I can.
 
Forgive me if someone has already posted on how to do this... I just haven't seen anybody else doing it so I figured I would mention it.
 
 
Jan 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM Post #914 of 4,994
I've also made some, without sacrificing the bowl pads, using just wool socks. They fit even better but I didn't like how they sorta absorbed the sound that was coming out and they made my head itch after a while.
 

 
Jan 20, 2012 at 2:44 PM Post #915 of 4,994
I'm so burnt out on the cups I will have to leave it to others if they want to tackle pads to go 100% grado free. I'm happy plunking down $20 for l-pads at this point. I find them comfortable once they take a soap-soak. And the drivers were designed with those pads so.........I agree strato, in a way different cups are subtle but it's the kind of subtle that is critical ime. Some subtle things are not critical, like a touch more bass extension. That sort of subtle thing doesn't prevent enjoyment from a headphone. But a subtle thing like a very nuanced artificial quality you can't quite put your finger on but affects every song played, is like a splinter in your craw that irritates my unconscious. We are aware of so little in what is going on, our 'body' or unconscious is doing most of the validation and hearing of sound- and everything else. All you have to do to find out how good a certain aspect of headphones is, or a set of headphones themselves, is to take notice of how happy they make you and/or how long you tend to want to listen to them. This is a sure way to find out if something is sounding natural and fatigue free. This is how a right brain type like myself does it anyway. A left brain analytal type would prefer to look at a graph to see how flat a line is or use a test disc to find what test samples say about this or that.......
 

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