[goodvibes]

Quote:

Well I lent my GR10 to dfkt and he's not posting much here lately, so for those interested here's his post on ABI.

They have a VERY different impedance than the E-q5 so they are definitely not the same driver just as the E-q7 isn't the same as the E-q5. If dfkt thinks they sound the same. Good on him but I have both on hand now and I find them clearly different. To each his own.

  Grado says they changed materials from what the Eq-7 and GR8 used. Believe them or not but be aware of the info. I know dfkt likes to rail on the price but the GR8 came out at a lower retail than the EQ7 with the same tech and the GR10 is an improved motor according to Grado. Like I said, it's a matter of what you want to believe, hear, and are willing to spec check. More power to those that think them the same and can save the money. Unfortunately, that isn't me.

 

[goodvibes]

Quote:

goodvibes: you have, relatively speaking, very high-end gear. And you seem to value subjective metrics like 'PRaT' (Naim) and 'fast transients' (Naim/Stax).  Given these personal acoustic 'values', I'd say your favorable comments re: GR10 are in alignment with my top IEM requirements.
I'm still a bit uncomfortable that you haven't had the opportunity to compare the GR10s to many other IEMs (not your fault, of course!). Given that, I disagree with your comment "...as dry as most BAs nor as euphonic as most dynamics". IMO, there are no hard-and-fast 'rules' like this. E.g., my IE8s (dynamic) are way less 'euphonic' than my 'SM3v2' (BA). You can check my profile for what I own. I've sampled more at headphone shows and meets. And I try to read and digest as much as possible on the technology and myriad subjective reviews.
 
What's the nozzle diameter (mm)?
 

 
 
I agree and why I said directly after the quote" I know either can work equally well but these are generalizations for descriptive purposes. ""'"'"""""""""""" They have some tendencies but either can be made accurate. I wasn't pigeonholing and have often stated that what's used shouldn't bias an evaluation. I also didn't say I haven't heard other high end IEMs. I said I haven't heard them all, just as you haven't heard the Grado.
 
One last thing. I personally find the E-q5 a bit less revealing but punchier than the Grado. Not as textured or refined but still adaquitely so. It's a bit hot with stock tips but likes Hybrids so maybe you'll like them that way also. Check Jokers review. I think he used the hybrids and I agree with his impartial take which was quite favorable.
 
Seems my trying to help is just going to turn into defending my views and some apparent truths again so good luck and I hope that whatever you choose works well for you.
 
 

 

[alphaman]

Quote:

One last thing. I personally find the E-q5 a bit less revealing but punchier than the Grado. Not as textured or refined but still adaquitely so. 

The e-Q5 vs. GR10 issue is very confusing to those of us who are getting ready to make a purchasing decision. 
dftk is an administrator (i.e., ttbomk, has financial interests) at a for-profit site. So brand/$$/politics -- i.e, business as usual? 'What politics', you ask? Well, check out the domain name for starters anythingbutipod.com. Now I ain't no Apple lover, but if there is one brand of DAP that scores WRT reliability and customer support, it's the folks in Cuppertino. (I'm thinking about starting a site ... anything-but-Teclast.com  -- and I've got three good non-political reasons)!! Alas, I digress ...
Back to our topic ... in that forum post , dftk notes ...
"The GR10 are Yashima OEM housings, but unlike the former GR8 they don't use Yashima's OEM moving armature driver, but the one that Ortofon tuned further for better quality. The GR10 sound exactly like the e-Q5 [...] Shame on Grado..." 
HUH?! 
Identical transducers (yes, afaik anyway)  ... but they (e-q5 and GR10) concurrently also have dissimilar housings, and (perhaps) Yashima customize their OEM housing (and maybe other components ('under the hood') as well as the wiring) per Grado requests for the GR10. Methinks this is why the both electrical specs and reported/subjective performance are different.
 

above: Yashima
 

above: Grado
 

above: e-Q5
 
Refs:
http://anythingbutipod.com/2011/01/ortofon-e-q5-review/
http://www.inearmatters.net/2010/09/upcoming-ortofon-e-q5-and-hifiman-re262.html
http://www.yashima-elec.co.jp/e/product_information/earphone_04.html
 
 
 
 
 

 

[dfkt]

Wow, never had such an ad hominem attack before. This crap is exactly why I don't post much here anymore, as James444 noticed.
 
I have no "financial interest" in anything. I'm not the owner of ABI, I don't make money off the traffic or the advertisements, and I never was happy with this "anti" name of the site.
 
This doesn't have anything to do with these phones anyway, but I sure don't like the way you take this to a personal level. In turn, this makes me wonder what ties you have to Grado, that you feel so offended and have to post "collected evidence", complete with bold parts, (ridiculously obvious) images, and a link section?
 
I have the e-Q5, and I borrowed James444's GR10. Then I wrote down what I heard, my personal opinion about them, and my opinion about Grado's approach to getting a foothold in the IEM game. Despite the different housings, and every other "evidence" you presented in your post above, they still sound the same. What I don't like is that Grado sells them for such a high price, since they're clearly cheaper to manufacture and have invested less in R&D than Ortofon, who sell their IEMs for cheaper. That's my opinion, and I voiced it. If money is no option, or the Ortos stick out too far - by all means, go for the GR10. That's all.
 
Seriously, I'm still scratching my head about how meticulously you built up your "case" against me in that post above. I'm astonished about this kind of completely irrelevant spin doctoring and ad hominem attacks. I'ts a pair of IEMs, it's not like I bombed Grado's headquarters, or stole their piggy bank... or maybe you think that Ortofon Japan sent me a large sack of money, to promote their product that's only intended for domestic sale in Japan?

 

[goodvibes]

The Grado and Ortos showed up at the same time and only Grado uses that housing so the origin of the drivers and housings are speculation. Did Grado get dibs? Did Ortofon not like them? I've had correspondence with Yashima and they're not telling. If you look at the drivers listed on their site, they are the originals used in the E-q7 and GR8 respectively. Both original OEM drivers. One is low impedance and the other high. That's the only difference between them other than some sonics that come along with any electrical differences. Same materials and construction other than the windings arrangement. No idea why Grado got the comfy case. Maybe they had a hand in it or maybe they just didn't see a need to change a good thing. There's no way to know. There's been a bunch of unsubstantiated tall tales about MAs for some time now. Here's the Yashima page that's been up since the beginning. http://www.yashima-elec.co.jp/e/product_information/detail/earphone_04/n20.html  Even the graph looks like the Ortofon lit. I'm glad to see you're not buying into the hype. I really don't know if the GR10 is for you. Like every IEM, nothing's for everyone or perfect but they should definitely be part of the process. If you're in the US, you should at least be able to get an audition which is something I recommend for anybody looking.
 
DFTK. Interesting take that the company that already was established in headphones and an IEM used Yashima to get a foothold

when the other without a headphone history originated the deal. Any proof of such? How about that the GR8 was cheaper than the EQ-7 when both appeared with different takes on the same driver? Virtually impossible in your scenario. You're biased whether you are aware of it or not but I'm not suggesting that it's affecting what you hear. I believe you hear what you do just like you hear that the W4 and Phonak are too close to call and almost identical. I don't understand why you don't hear these differences but I certainly wouldn't want you to report other than your actual subjective results. The industrial intrigue stuff is however a bit too subjective for me. Not really the place for speculation. I do like your reviews overall, especially the measurements.

 

[dfkt]

I'm checking if I can disclose the source of the information about the drivers.
 
While there are slight differences between the PFE and the W4 (differences that for me aren't worth the additional amount of drivers, or the much higher price), I stand by my findings that the e-Q5 and the GR10 sound the same.
 
There are of course several uncertainty factors that need to be considered. When I got James444's GR10, they had some (I think) JVC silicone tips on them, while my e-Q5 had Phonak PFE tips on them. They did sound much more different than some other phones I tried with various tips, seems the Yashima driver/nozzle is rather tip-depended. Also, while the GR10 have an easy fit and go into my ears only one way, the e-Q5 can be wiggled around and inserted from different angles into my ear canal. When I put the e-Q5 in straight, they also sound a slight bit different than the GR10 - a tiny bit less treble, a tiny bit more forward midrange. However when I put the e-Q5 into my ears from an angle, so that they sit more or less flush in my outer ear, they sound exactly the same as the GR10. I've spent quite some time comparing them, and in the end, depending on those factors, they sound the same to my ears. With the GR10 I always achieve the same sound, but the e-Q5 are a bit more finicky concerning their fit. That could be considered a positive or a negative point, depending on one's ears and/or sound preference.
 
Also, while I can't measure their impedance, their electrical resistance is basically identical - both the e-Q5 and the GR10 show a bit below 16 Ohm on my multimeter. That doesn't mean much, but it's still something worth mentioning.
 

 

[goodvibes]

I know dimitri from musica has stated that driver info to clients but again, it's goes directly against what Grado says on their own site, what yashima shows on there's and like many things, even same is relative. Little things can go a long way in sound. I know that's not what you hear but it is what I do so there's a reason I'm going with what I can actually read from the suppliers as it all falls in line for me. Yashima clearly stated to me that it's their corporate policy to not discuss what is supplied to individual clients in an email that also informed me that Final wasn't one of them.
 
I'm not trying to disparage Dimitri either as he seems to be a great retailer that takes excellent care of his clients (something I really appreciate)but that doesn't mean he can't get bad info from a biased Orto rep or just get it wrong.
 
Interseting about the resistance but like you said it can be very different at 1k where it's speced. I know the gr8 that's listed at 120 ohms, actually has a DC resistance below 60 and actually has near that impedance at 500hz.
 
I think that at the end of the day, we can agree that all should listen for themselves. It's unfortunate that it's often so difficult to do.

 

[alphaman]

"The GR10 sound exactly like the e-Q5 [...]"
Well, I should be fair and try to list off some significant non-political, non-financially-motivated reasons why two dissimilar IEMs may sound the same. 
 
Health/physiological:
Low blood sugar
Head cold, flu, or being ill
Emotional stress (effect on psychoacoustics)
Change in the weather (pressure/barometric)
 
Logical fallacy biases / psychology:
Cognitive dissonance
Selection bias (including time bias)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
 
Other:
Critically listening (for personal, purchase-related eval. or public review) in a noisy environment (even with IEMs!).
Critically listening (for personal, purchase-related eval. or public review) in a distracting environment, and or while multi-tasking.
 
Rare (v. unlikely):
Tip /ear-canal combo. One can often change the tip to importantly affect an IEM's sonics. On this premise, you may coincidentally run into two diff IEMs which both use two diff tips, but they sound similar. Not impossible, just highly improbable.
 
Folks, I'm totally serious in this message as I've experienced some/all these phenomena at one time or another: E.g., after a tiring exercise run with my IEM and DAP, acoustics tend to have "monotone". 
 
All that said, an experienced reviewer should be aware of most of the above, and take proper steps to mitigate these effects or pre-conditions.
 

 

[ClieOS]

Interesting discussion so far. I have both e-Q5 and e-Q7 with me, so I take a quick measuring on DC resistance: e-Q7 is 15ohm and e-Q5 is 15.6ohm. They both rated as 40ohm on impedance IIRC, but these info is not meant to be the most accurate thing around.

 

[goodvibes]

Well, either of us could be biased but I did hand both over to a couple of sound pros weren't familiar with either and without info on either. They didn't think them identical either without much time between them. Liked them both, also preferred the GR10 but I could see not everybody doing so if they happen to like the Orto sig. The idea that Grado makes an up model and Orto a down one with the same driver when they were starting at the same place is a very odd concept.

 

[goodvibes]

 
Quote:

Interesting discussion so far. I have both e-Q5 and e-Q7 with me, so I take a quick measuring on DC resistance: e-Q7 is 15ohm and e-Q5 is 15.6ohm. They both rated as 40ohm on impedance IIRC, but these info is not meant to be the most accurate thing around.

I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer from Yashima. As you're well aware, I'm perfectly willing to admit when I get it wrong. Same impedance also doesn't mean same driver. Different however would verify different. To bad we can't measure actual impedance with a meter.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer from Yashima. As you're well aware, I'm perfectly willing to admit when I get it wrong. Same impedance also doesn't mean same driver. Different however would verify different.

 
No doubt. To be honest I care less about what driver are used by Grado, but more on their lack of effort on trying to use a less generic housing than the OEM one. Not just GR8 and GR10, but even the $80 iGi is using housing from $25 IEM as well. That goes further than what driver they used and left me with a negative impression on their attitude toward customer. I personally think they should at least make an effort to ask the OEM for a slightly different housing. If others can do that, why not Grado? It is that feeling on Grado's lack of effort that turns me away from Grado IEM. It is not meant to bash Grado in anyway. I do like their big cans and that is why I feel more critical toward their IEM.
 

 

[goodvibes]

I feel different. I guess it's a matter of perspective but generic to me means common to more than one. No one else is using that housing and it's durable, extremely comfortable and good looking with very a nice auto like metallic painted finish on the cap. Where the rubber meets the road, it's aluminium with the same basic build as the Ortos. It works really well and is exclusive to Grado. If you saw the construction up close, I don't think you'd be disappointed. The one thing that everybody does agree on about them is the comfort and they do look good in person. If you mean the basic shape as not unique, I can see that but there's a reason that bullets are common. If that shape came from good engineering by Yashima, why change it if it's exclusive and we don't know that Grado didn't have a hand in it. They work and Grado has always been about form following function. Their headphones and cartridges aren't exactly cosmetically stunning. I actually think these are a step up. LOL Personally, the only thing I'd like to see is more accesories like a case, 1/4" adapter and an additional larger tip size for those with very large openings. Of course, the target market probably already have all of these but it would be an appropriate presentation. While we're at it, why don't maufacturers give mini to micro adapters with so many cel phones going small again.
 
As for the igi, I agree and I suspect it's just more of their 'it works well so we're good' attitude. From a marketing point of view, I doubt their market is aware of the commonality of that case but for me personally, it has the same connotation as yourself.

 

[james444]

All that talk about the same or different drivers is repetative and won't lead to anything. Feel free to believe what you want. I linked dfkt's post, because he's an experienced HFer who's heard both side by side and agrees with me that they sound very very similar. If goodvibes thinks they don't, no big deal in my book. Everybody has a right to their own ears.

 

[goodvibes]

I agree. It was back in discussion because the statement was in your link. If they're the same or equal sounding to you or dftk, I'm fine with that even if I don't happen to agree. I wouldn't expect otherwise if that's what you hear. I just don't care for the unsubstantiated same driver proves that they are aspect of it. I hope you'd expect a little flak when tossing grenades.