[music_4321]

Quote:

That is quickly becoming the crux of many a recent argument post of mine around here. It's starting to become tiring honestly.

 
In a few IEM threads I've been following in the last few months the subject of FR graphs has been cropping up, and it's got to the point, in some instances, where it feels as if some people are discussing—more like arguing, really—about politics or religion, with some rather extreme views, particularly by a single individual spreading repeatedly—over and over and over and over again—the gospel of 'graphs/measurements say it all, no need to even listen to an IEM to know what it sounds like'. Saying this is becoming tiring, at this stage, is perhaps a bit of an understatement (to me, that is).

 

[Inks]

It sure as heck applies to the ASG-1, unfortunately. But in many cases your point probably holds assuming nothing extreme.

Or could just be the sources sound change rather than the iem. I have yet to see a dynamic iem that would clearly degrade with a impedance mismatch, full size dynamic headphones are a whole another story. People get that assumption from nwavguys samples which were BAs and full size headphones, both with very non linear impedance phase. James is spot on

 

[cooperpwc]

If this is all true, it is actually good news. My Pico Power will ship this week and I would like to try it as a home amp with the 1601SC and 1602SS. I have high hopes for it but I infer that its output impedance is probably around 3 or 4.

 

[Inks]

Lol again, it doesn't matter and 4ohms isn't very high to begin with, but that only matters if your using a BA like the SS. Even then the SS sounds doesn't get worse with impedance just a bit brighter

 

[up late]

i really don't get why people feel threatened by headphone measurements. we measure everything else to gauge its performance. and measuring phones really isn't rocket science. sure there might be some variations between results depending on who's taking them but they don't differ all that much from what I've seen.

sure final audio intentionally tunes the PFs but doesn't every other headphone manufacturer? that's no reason not to measure them against an objective standard.

the geeks don't just rely on the measurements to assess phones from what I've seen. they listen first and then measure. they review the phones based on how they hear them and refer to the measurements. it's not an either/or thing.

i'm not going to get hung up over a phone that measures badly but sounds good to me. but I'm not going to diss the measurements either because they show that the phone I dig has a wonky frequency response.

 

[music_4321]

The 'beauty' and 'simplicity' of frequency response graphs.

 

[quartertone]

Quote:

 
In a few IEM threads I've been following in the last few months the subject of FR graphs has been cropping up, and it's got to the point, in some instances, where it feels as if some people are discussing—more like arguing, really—about politics or religion, with some rather extreme views, particularly by a single individual spreading repeatedly—over and over and over and over again—the gospel of 'graphs/measurements say it all, no need to even listen to an IEM to know what it sounds like'. Saying this is becoming tiring, at this stage, is perhaps a bit of an understatement (to me, that is).

The tiresome discussions needn't even ensue if people simply took the approach one should generally take with dogmatic zealots: don't bother arguing, as there's little to be gained by it.

 

[up late]

so what's your point music? the graphs aren't exactly the same when you put them side by side so they're not valid? topographic maps can look different depending on the scale used so we better throw them out too. lol! even I can see the similarities between the ex1000 frequency response measurements taken by different people using different measuring techniques. i don't expect them to be identical because of that but they don't look wildly different to me either. they're only meant to be indicative man.

 

[vwinter]

Or could just be the sources sound change rather than the iem. I have yet to see a dynamic iem that would clearly degrade with a impedance mismatch, full size dynamic headphones are a whole another story. People get that assumption from nwavguys samples which were BAs and full size headphones, both with very non linear impedance phase. James is spot on

I agree about James' post, but it's not saying the same thing as your post really. Honestly, like I said, I mostly agree with yours too. I just wanted to point out that there are outliers.

I don't know about degrade, which I don't think I implied but they definitely change.

And now for my awesome twist of an ending:
Same source, low and high impedance headphone outputs.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

The tiresome discussions needn't even ensue if people simply took the approach one should generally take with dogmatic zealots: don't bother arguing, as there's little to be gained by it.

 
Yes, in a perfect world that is exactly what one should do. Unfortunately, enough people engage / respond, so that's a perfect opportunity for more pontificating and more display of apparent expert knowledge, and more spreading of the gospel of 'DATA IS IT', perhaps not unlike what is known as "feed the troll" in many instances.
 
 
Quote:

so what's your point music? the graphs aren't exactly the same when you put them side by side so they're not valid? topographic maps can look different depending on the scale used so we better throw them out too. lol!

 
Is that really the point I've been trying to make? Seemingly small differences in topographic maps, mind you, may have more serious consequences.
 
Quote:

...even I can see the similarities between the ex1000 frequency response measurements taken by different people using different measuring techniques. i don't expect them to be identical because of that but they don't look wildly different to me either.

 
Perhaps you should look a little closer at ALL the graphs in that link for both the EX800/7550 & EX1000.
 
Quote:

... they're only meant to be indicative man.

 
Oh yes, "indicative", but not necessarily conclusive, and it's the latter, precisely, which is what I've been observing from a few members, but a hell of a lot more from one in particular who I've come to view as a data / graphs / measurements extremist (in the full sense of the word) — I think you might need to re-read some of my posts (not just in this thread) on the subject to know exactly where I stand with regards to audio graphs / measurements / data.

 

[vwinter]

i really don't get why people feel threatened by headphone measurements. we measure everything else to gauge its performance. and measuring phones really isn't rocket science. sure there might be some variations between results depending on who's taking them but they don't differ all that much from what I've seen.

sure final audio intentionally tunes the PFs but doesn't every other headphone manufacturer? that's no reason not to measure them against an objective standard.

Nectarines to plums man (not quite apples to oranges ). Everything else is measured to gauge performance to a specific expected outcome. With headphones many treat many graphs that reveal as graphs that gauge.

I see this more similarly as car manufacturers tuning steering "feel." Each manufacturer probably does some kinds of tests to gauge performance but in the end, they all have a different idea of what good steering feel is so they all think the cars perform well. The important part of my point is that the objective standard you are talking about might never have been the intention of the designer. Then you test against that standard and of course it won't line up well. People need to understand that as well as how and in regard to what measurements are useful, and they are useful.

 

[up late]

well music I see them as indicative and useful that way. can't speak for anyone else. I don't get the impression that Tyll Hertsen thinks his measurements are conclusive or tell the whole story. I like his balanced approach to this hobby. it is just a hobby. nothing to get worked up over right?

 

[Inks]

I agree about James' post, but it's not saying the same thing as your post really. Honestly, like I said, I mostly agree with yours too. I just wanted to point out that there are outliers.

I don't know about degrade, which I don't think I implied but they definitely change.

And now for my awesome twist of an ending:
Same source, low and high impedance headphone outputs.

It is saying the same as me, linear impedance phase=no change, every dynamic I've seen has been the same.

Yeah actually that's something to mention, that impedance mismatch sometimes results in better results!! Lol. There's just change, it's something to be evaluated on a specific basis. ASG1 may be an exception for a dynamic, I've yet to see one tested though.

 

[vwinter]

In a few IEM threads I've been following in the last few months the subject of FR graphs has been cropping up, and it's got to the point, in some instances, where it feels as if some people are discussing—more like arguing, really—about politics or religion, with some rather extreme views, particularly by a single individual spreading repeatedly—over and over and over and over again—the gospel of 'graphs/measurements say it all, no need to even listen to an IEM to know what it sounds like'. Saying this is becoming tiring, at this stage, is perhaps a bit of an understatement (to me, that is).

I wonder how well that would hold up in blind testing... It would obviously have to be with IEMs that they haven't heard before, blindfolded. What's funny about this and at the same time very scientific is that what and how studies think we hear change. So when they do change, will they still be confident that they can know how it will sound becuase they thought they knew before, but all of a sudden it's not the same. Interesting stuff actually lol.

Personally, I'd be missing out on a lot of the emotional aspects that I enjoy about this hobby.

Sorry for the separate posts, on my mobile and its just easier this way.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

... I don't get the impression that Tyll Hertsen thinks his measurements are conclusive or tell the whole story. I like his balanced approach to this hobby.

 
Actually, I have quite a bit of respect for Tyll even if I don't always agree with what he says — he's most definitely an asset to the community; and yes, I also like the fact he does seem to strive to have a so-called balanced approach and seems to be open to aspects not pertaining to the world of pure audio science / measurements. Hey, I even have just a tiny bit of respect for that tremendously uncool dude, james444, and we don't always agree (of course in the case of Uncool James I happen to always be right!)
 
Quote:

...it is just a hobby. nothing to get worked up over right?

 
I'm grumpy, old, crippling, rather unstable, nearly blind & deaf, but I don't get as easily worked up as you may think.