DT990s vs. DT880s or something else entirely

[Rawrbington]

what about the darkvoice 336 or schiit valhalla?

 

[Nintendam]

well... hopefully the PB1 won't degrade the 880 600's too much... I don't have the ability to bring a desktop amp to work, so it has to be portable...
 
They are waiting at my doorstep right now! I'll let you know how the sound, but I have no other amp to compare the PB1's too

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

Yes, I barely hear a difference of dynamics between my iMac and the LDMK2 powering the 600Ω Beyer (besides the obvious huge increase in volume capacity and subdued treble by the mallard drivers)  I'm wondering that at this point it's more worth it to upgrade to a very expensive amp, or try and sell my 600Ω Beyers for a lower impedance version.  I'm getting the Denon D2000 in shortly so it'll be interesting to see if I can hear a noticeable upgrade in dynamics in that coming from iMac to LDMK2.

The common misconception is volume equals sufficient amping, this broadens from listening to the DT800/600s on a LD2 then recommending cheaper options like the E9 simply because they also sound the same in volume. Truth is both are under powered but this isn't something you are aware too until you hear them properly.
 
Oh and skip the D2000s, it's a prestigious looking pair of beats. I upgraded to the $32 JVC RX700s from the Denons, the sound quality is quite poor.

 
Quote:

what about the darkvoice 336 or schiit valhalla?

 
Yeah I have the 336, best I've heard for the 880s. I would say no to the Valhalla but possibly to the Lyr depending on driver.

 

[Rawrbington]

Quote:

 
 
Yeah I have the 336, best I've heard for the 880s. I would say no to the Valhalla but possibly to the Lyr depending on driver.

have you had a chance to hear the Valhalla with the 600 ohm beyers?
i was under the impression it was an OTL amp designed to drive high imp cans

 

[TMRaven]

So what is it about the Darkvoice that differentiates itself from the Little Dots?  I already ordered the D2000 and it's on its way, and I'll probably like it.  I'm not after the extreme fidelity in sound, but I want the best sounding-fun sonic signature.  Hopefully the Denon's soundstage is relatively good for a closed hp.  Besides that it gets wide praise.

 

[tdockweiler]

Quote:

I wouldn't consider either with a cheap op-amp driven solid-state, especially not an E9. If you can afford a high-gain tube amp (around $300+) go with the 600Ohm Beyers and you'll be set for a long time. Alternatively if your budget lies around a Beyer and an E9 I'd favor a less demanding phone and possibly hold off on the amp until you can afford the pair.

 
Oh there you go again with your mis-information. You do understand the E9 is not a portable amp right? Acting as if the E9 has trouble driving ANY DT-880 is just crazy talk. I do think even the 32ohm Beyers need an amp and would never suggest them without one. It's good you have an opinion, but I can't let this one pass. As always, get the best amp you can afford. Many people just avoid amps, so the E9 or anything else at it's price point is a good place for them to start. Better than nothing.
 
I suggest ignoring Graphicism and listening to people who have owned the E9 or actually listened to it for more than 10 minutes. Highly unlikely he has.
 
EDIT: No I'm not saying the DT-880 600 ohm and a E9 is a perfect combination. Please nobody give me this lecture about volume level. I already know this.

The E9 is not the best amp in the world, but for $100-$120 it's hard to beat and is easily found online without waiting. Heck that thing can even drive my K601 quite well!
I use it as a backup amp for downstairs and it's not going anywhere.
 
 
 
 

 
 

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

have you had a chance to hear the Valhalla with the 600 ohm beyers?
i was under the impression it was an OTL amp designed to drive high imp cans

 
I have and I didn't think much too it, I haven't heard the Lyr however from reading people seem to like it with their orthos which are also power hungry. OTL simply means it doesn't have an output transformer to reduce the high current, this is extremely common in cheap tube amps, the benefit is they are better equipped to handle higher Ohm phones. The benefit being a lower ground level and low distortion, you couldn't however guarantee a good match with a particular phone.
 
 
Quote:

Oh there you go again with your mis-information. You do understand the E9 is not a portable amp right? Acting as if the E9 has trouble driving ANY DT-880 is just crazy talk. I do think even the 32ohm Beyers need an amp and would never suggest them without one. It's good you have an opinion, but I can't let this one pass. As always, get the best amp you can afford. Many people just avoid amps, so the E9 or anything else at it's price point is a good place for them to start. Better than nothing.
 
I suggest ignoring Graphicism and listening to people who have owned the E9 or actually listened to it for more than 10 minutes. Highly unlikely he has.

You're quick to point the finger. In fact looking at your profile and the cans you've been through with the low-gain, highly portable amps you're the type of member I am referring too. You're saying the E9 is fine because it's as good as several other low-gain and/or portable amps you've compared it too, when in fact you haven't heard a properly amped headphone at all. I am not saying don't bother with the E9, I am saying DT880 with an E9 won't be much of an upgrade from an AD700, however for another $100 a high-gain tube amp would be a huge upgrade. The problem I have with Fiio products is like Beats they are all marketing, for less than the Fiio DAC/amp combo you can buy a Zero DAC/amp, this has nothing to do with money and more to do with marketing which you're overly susceptible too.
 
It's very easy for someone to come to this forum, be suggested an E9 to power a DT880/600 for example and then a few months later be suggesting this combination themselves and additionally slamming anyone who says anything negative about their equipment. When in truth they haven't heard a proper amp, there headphones are under powered and they are non the wiser.
 
 
Quote:

So what is it about the Darkvoice that differentiates itself from the Little Dots?  I already ordered the D2000 and it's on its way, and I'll probably like it.  I'm not after the extreme fidelity in sound, but I want the best sounding-fun sonic signature.  Hopefully the Denon's soundstage is relatively good for a closed hp.  Besides that it gets wide praise.

Probably down to the tubes you can roll with it, skylab and others will be able to give you a much more technical side of things.
 

 
Also check out a couple 336i threads:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/348833/darkvoice-336i-336se-tuberolling-partii
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/193214/darkvoice-336-336i-tuberolling-tubes

 

[BackwardPawn]

I guess I'll look into amps a bit more before I order the headphones.  Or maybe look into the 250ohm, but considering its the same price it would seem more worthwhile to invest in something that can power the 600ohms proper.

 

[Rawrbington]

Quote:

 
I have and I didn't think much too it, I haven't heard the Lyr however from reading people seem to like it with their orthos which are also power hungry. OTL simply means it doesn't have an output transformer to reduce the high current, this is extremely common in cheap tube amps, the benefit is they are better equipped to handle higher Ohm phones. The benefit being a lower ground level and low distortion, you couldn't however guarantee a good match with a particular phone.
 
 

Thanks for the response.  ive been eyeing both the 336 and the valhalla for my 990/600s, but the darkvoice is cheaper anyways.  I have read several people rave about the Val with the 990s and idk if its sound is just better for the more coloured 990s than your 880s or if people just like what they have.
 
anyways, wheres the best place to buy a DV?  i see a couple of ebay sellers but the shipping is absurred! 75$
also recommend some of your fav tubes, perhaps ones that darken the sound a bit or add a little bid of midrange or bass since the 990s altready have gobbs of trebble
 
 

 

[TheWuss]

 
Quote:

I guess I'll look into amps a bit more before I order the headphones.  Or maybe look into the 250ohm, but considering its the same price it would seem more worthwhile to invest in something that can power the 600ohms proper.

i wish i could find the sensitivity ratings for the 250 ohm and 600 ohm beyers (decibels per milliwatt).
however, i'll just have to share anecdotally, that most folks would mistake the 250 ohm beyers as "twice as easy to drive" as the 600 ohm siblings.
However, this isn't anywhere near true.
In fact, they are almost as hard to drive.
 
You see, powering a headphone isn't just about impedance.  It's also about sensitivity.
The 250 ohm beyers, while being of lower impedance, also have slightly heavier drivers, making them "nearly" as difficult to achieve similar sound pressure levels.

 

[tdockweiler]

Quote:

You're quick to point the finger. In fact looking at your profile and the cans you've been through with the low-gain, highly portable amps you're the type of member I am referring too. You're saying the E9 is fine because it's as good as several other low-gain and/or portable amps you've compared it too, when in fact you haven't heard a properly amped headphone at all. I am not saying don't bother with the E9, I am saying DT880 with an E9 won't be much of an upgrade from an AD700, however for another $100 a high-gain tube amp would be a huge upgrade. The problem I have with Fiio products is like Beats they are all marketing, for less than the Fiio DAC/amp combo you can buy a Zero DAC/amp, this has nothing to do with money and more to do with marketing which you're overly susceptible too.
 
It's very easy for someone to come to this forum, be suggested an E9 to power a DT880/600 for example and then a few months later be suggesting this combination themselves and additionally slamming anyone who says anything negative about their equipment. When in truth they haven't heard a proper amp, there headphones are under powered and they are non the wiser.
 

See here people, this is how pathetic Graphicism is. Someone's opinion is different than his, so he will then look at your profile and over-analyze all your gear just to try and fling poo at you for having a different opinion. It's really sad. This explains all I need to know about him. This is part of the problem on Head-Fi these days. Someone always wants to ruin your fun and point out that you can't possibly enjoy a headphone because he doesn't have an expensive amp or that if it's not good to him and his ears, it must be junk. You don't need a $300 tube amp to drive the DT-880 600 well!
 
I'm going to ignore this idiotic idea from you that i've never had a properly amped headphone at all. You claim you're not a troll but I definitely think otherwise with comments like this. OK, FYI The Headroom Micro amp is powerful enough to drive the HD-650, K601, K702 and has perfect synergy with all of them. It's driven EVERYTHING I've thrown at it extremely well and was my upgrade from the Asgard (and I think it's better)! I mostly bought it for my K702 and HD-650 I had at the time. It makes the Fiio E9 look like a joke really, but that should be obvious. Of course you'll probably want to look at it's PDF manual to fling more poo and prove me wrong. It's not some battery powered amp, but yes it is small. Why do I bother replying to trolls again? I guess you got what you wanted.
 
You did the same thing last time when I suggested the E9. You go through my profile and proclaim that I have no DAC! Ever think that maybe I don't use a computer for music? Or that I prefer CD? I have a DAC. It's garbage and I don't use it much.
 
BTW I used one IEM for 3 years and only started getting back into headphones in early 2010. Please tell me why I should need to go out and buy multiple amps? I only buy what's required for what I'm currently using. If I don't like it, I'll try another amp.I did this with the HD-600, HD-650 and K702.
 
I'm done wasting my time here. Talking to Graphicism just turns into a train wreck. All over headphones, which makes it even more sad.

 

[TMRaven]

What kind of differences do the Darkvoice have that make it able to properly drive a 600Ω beyer that a Little Dot won't?  I'm not skeptical about it because I feel like the Little Dot isn't properly doing its job in the dynamics department, but is it a power output thing?  I know tubes do a great deal to alter sound signature, but if they're the main difference between the Darkvoice and the Little Dots then color me skeptical.  Does the magic lie in one of those large pentode tubes?  Or is it just the circuitry pumping out way more power?
 
 

 

[Rawrbington]

Quote:

 

i wish i could find the sensitivity ratings for the 250 ohm and 600 ohm beyers (decibels per milliwatt).
however, i'll just have to share anecdotally, that most folks would mistake the 250 ohm beyers as "twice as easy to drive" as the 600 ohm siblings.
However, this isn't anywhere near true.
In fact, they are almost as hard to drive.
 
You see, powering a headphone isn't just about impedance.  It's also about sensitivity.
The 250 ohm beyers, while being of lower impedance, also have slightly heavier drivers, making them "nearly" as difficult to achieve similar sound pressure levels.

i agree.  i found my DT 770 pro 80 ohms to be more easily driven than my DT 770/32 ohm premiums.  Volume wise they were very similar but the 32 ohm version seemed a bigger source to get the richer sound, instead of just volume.  so i think there is more to it then impedance alone
 
 

 

[blacknile]

Interesting discussion.
 
I would like to contribute my personal experience regarding the DT880 600 ohm and more specifically the Little Dot MK III. I do most of my listening using speakers and an integrated amp, and have done so for several years. I've recently entered the headphone world having moved into a new flat where it's impossible for me to use my speakers at times. 
 
Motivated by the good reviews and by curiosity, I purchased the Dt880 and initially used them only out of the headphone jack of the integrated. I did love the combination. Solid imaging, great bass and separation, wonderful microdynamics.
 
However, having read several threads suggesting the DT880 are ideally matched with dedicated amps - specifically otl tube amps - I started thinking - am I missing something? Am I exploiting these to the best of their possibilities? I went for the cheap Little Dot MK III.
 
I wasn't impressed. It's not that they didn't sound good, it's that they didn't sound significantly better (both to my ears and to those of a mate that helped me with some blind tests) than my humble integrated amp's jack. I really tried hard to spot the differences, and I also purchased new driver tubes (Mullard 8100 if I'm not wrong) that represented a little side step in the sound signature of the LD - nothing major however. On some records, I actually found the integrated to perform better than the Little Dot - the latter being less exciting and dynamic.
 
Bottom line, the LD was sold. I really couldn't justify owning an additional piece of hardware that didn't really do anything better than what I already had. Please notice I am not dismissing the value of dedicated headphone amplifiers in general: as I haven't owned any other dedicated amplifiers, it might well be the case that something like a DV 336 or a high-voltage Schiit is what's really needed for these headphones to bloom - maybe both an integrated amp's jack and the little dot are compromises.
 
The point of my post was to try and discuss this motto "DT880 600ohm are only at their best with otl tube amps"..I would tend to disagree. In my case, a non dedicated SS amp drove them equally good, or better. It might well be the case that a cheaper, but powerful amp like the Fiio could do an excellent job as well.
 
It might also be the case that GOOD OTL tube amps will take these dt880 to the next level. However, I prefer to stop purchasing gear for this set-up at the moment, as I'm perfectly happy with my current solution. 

 

[TMRaven]

It's nice to know someone has had a similar experience to mine.