Best (timbre) IEM?
Feb 23, 2011 at 12:50 AM Post #106 of 134


 
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I suggest you stick with universals for a while longer, maybe even a year or more, in order to properly learn your preferences. This is more than just sound signature, but includes other esoteric variables like airiness, timbre (clearly), soundstage, etc. For instance, after using some different universals I've learned that I value very highly a large and airy soundstage, and am willing to give up some detail to have it. This means that for me nearly every custom in production (with the possible exception of the ep-10 plus)  would not be a good choice since they all have an intimate stage - or so say all the impressions.

Well, I'll chime in with info on my new custom, why not. The Future Sonics MG6pro Ear Monitor would give you a large and airy soundstage, as well. So, the dynamic driver custom is an option as well.


 
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EX1000 > FX700 > IE8. The IE8 project a much more distant soundstage than the others, like sitting somewhere in the middle of a concert hall, whereas the Sonys and JVCs place you much closer to the stage. For those who prefer to be seated further back the IE8 would obviously rank higher.

By comparison for a dynamic custom, the MG6pro puts you in a nicely spacious concert hall, but you have pretty good seats, depending on the recording (I have a few Mahler symphonies that sound like you are in God's Own Concert Hall). It has a lot more of a space-outside-the-head feeling than the universal fit Atrios and Monster turbine pro coppers, for example. I heard the Miles Davis as having a more intimate soundstage than the coppers.
 
Of course, as I say, the recording plays a part. I remember people were raving that a FOTM could have less or more soundstage with a given recording and I thought "my old sony ex90 earbuds could do that". However, there's something about a vented dynamic that can really give a sense of space.
 
Feb 23, 2011 at 2:16 AM Post #107 of 134
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I have a few Mahler symphonies that sound like you are in God's Own Concert Hall.

 
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... my old sony ex90 earbuds could do that ...


IME soundstaging is entirely independent of IEM price and overall quality. My $25 Playaz N1 are pretty much unlistenable without heavy EQing, however they present one of the most impressive soundstages I've ever come across.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 3:15 AM Post #108 of 134
I'm really screwed..aside from SM3s/DBA-02s, I have my JVC FX700s coming from seyo-shop. Then I read that Sony EX1000 is better. Is there a significance SQ upgrade if I purchase the EX1000? Though I'm not sure if this is available here in Sony SG.
 
Anyone tried to compare customs to universal iems like JH16/JH13/UExx/Westone ES5 vs FX7000/EX1000 in terms of timbre? Since it's timbre we are talking here.
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Mar 3, 2011 at 3:48 AM Post #109 of 134
Did you read my EX1000 review? It includes an A/B comparison with the FX700. Just click the EX1000 link in my sig. A comparison with the JH16 is included with the Headphonia review that I've linked in my own review.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 4:48 AM Post #110 of 134
I'm a little late to this conversation, but I can help point you to a couple options or at least confirm some that have been mentioned.
 
You speak of timber a lot.  I understand why.  Many IEMs, especially BA based ones tend to have almost too clean of a note, at least a note of very short rise and decay with minimal body.  You may have BA earphones that are thick bodied like the Triple.Fi 10 or BA earphones that are very articulated like the W3, but it's tough to find a product that sounds "real."
 
As ways already said and you have come to understand, it's really about everything: the speed, the dynamics, the articulation, the body, everything.  It all comes together to create a believable presence, something that sounds life-like.  At least that's the goal anyways.
 
Speaking of timber, and I will add terms like texture, articulation of note, and body as they sort of go hand-in-hand.  It's all about fleshing out the note, not only filling the presence but also articulating and detailing the information to portray the information fully and accurately.  The better it's done, the more life-like or at least more true to the source information it becomes.  In the end, you may not want to discuss just timber or even timber at all.  You might simply ask, what is the most life-like, more realistic sounding earphone you've ever used?  What was so good in reproducing the sound that it could literally fool you into thinking what you heard was real (background noise in a song, somebody talking in the background in the audio track).  I can't say I've owned too many earphones that had a very life-like sound, something I could describe as sounding very realistic.  The list is short, and that is kind of unfortunate.  Notable earphones that I've used include my old and much loved Yuin OK1 earbuds, the now discontinued Denon C700/C751 (unsure how the new models relate back to the previous gen stuff), the Audio Technica CK10, the squeaky clean SE530, the colorful Triple.Fi 10, and the not yet publicly available RE262.  There are a lot of other great earphones, but they fall short in portraying something that can be believed as sounding real and life-like.  Even the ones I listed vary some in how well they present a realistic sound and include some shortcomings.  The OK1 is a bud, very good, but not an IEM.  The C700/C751 isn't the sound signature you're looking for as I see it as a poor man's IE8 in many ways.  You don't want bass that strong.  The SE530 is great for realism, but it's just too clean and short on note.  You get a life-like sound that ends up just a little hollow/ghostly.  The Triple.Fi 10 is both bassy and bright, and you want something colder and more mid-centric, although EQing can improve the balance.  Even so, it's still a thick note with limited dynamic breadth and more fun than analytical.  The RE262 is very good but borderline too clean like the BAs and less analytical with its smoother top end.  In the end, the only one I see seriously fitting your goals is the CK10.  Short a moderate but narrow treble peak at 10kHz, it's very flat, and note quality is very high through the entire spectrum.  It's a BA but very well articulated, dynamic, and well fleshed out.  The portrayal of realism is very high.  The bass isn't overpowering.   It's super fast and extremely detailed.  Maybe the only shortcoming I might give to it is that it lacks some of the visceral sense as many BA based earphones do, but the presence is still good enough to sound real.  Some gain in visceral presence can be had by EQing sub 40Hz frequencies to which the CK10 does roll off some with.
 
What about tricking the mind?  What's good enough to make something sound real as in real world real?  One thing I've seen with a couple earphones I've used is that they tend to be good enough to fool me into thinking a noise or talking in the song or video I was watching existed in the real world, enough so where I'd do something like take off my earphones to see who was talking to me.  I will say right up front, most earphones I've used are not capable of this.  They simply aren't transparent and believable enough to pull off such a stunt.  You always know you're listening to an earphone and the sounds you hear are coming from the earphone.  Even if the transparency is very high, it may not be good enough to sound that real.  The only earphones I've really had that were that good were the OK1 earbuds and the RE252.  Frankly I like the OK1 buds a ton.  They do a lot of things incredibly well, however they are buds, and they do have certain shortcomings too.  Why didn't I liste the RE252 above?  Well, it isn't universally life-like.  They dynamics are compressed enough where the sound comes across constrained and slightly closed in.  The trickery comes from its great ability to portray subtlety in music and sounds very well.  This at times can catch you off guard.  However, the overall presentation suffers from a dynamic driver that is constrained in some way, be it a weak motor, high loss suspension, or something along those sorts that limits the effortlessness and subsequently believability of the sound as real and life-like.  The RE262 does it better.  The RE262 is even more transparent.  However, the RE262 falls short in that it is almost too clean and lean in note.  I wouldn't call it ghostly like the SE530, but it does start heading that direction a little bit.  Why not the CK10 if it's so good?  I don't know.  Frankly I can't tell you.  From a technical standpoint, the CK10 does almost everything right.  At the same time, it simply isn't engaging, visceral, radiates sound like that of some of these other earphones.  The transparency is outstanding, but it doesn't just "exist."  The earphones you find that can fool you better are the ones that the sound more so just exists rather than is created.  The sound is just there, more like you're thinking or daydreaming the sound rather than hearing the sound.  This is something the OK1 earbud does.  The RE252 does this to some level too.  I will say the RE262 heads towards this degree too.
 
There's a lot of talk about the Ortofon earphones.  What about those?
 
Well, if you want timber, they have it.  If you want balanced and something more clean and analytical, they fit well.  Speed is good.  Dynamic range isn't outstanding.  Quite information is extremely quiet, but it does portray loudness well.  It's just not the most articulated nor linear in behavior.  There is a natural sense of realism which is good, but the presentation of that sound in the sound stage isn't believable.  The sound stage ends up a little small and lacks depth.  Apparently the e-Q5 is improved, but I have not heard it personally.
 
Any other noteable suggestions?
 
Sure.  I really like the CK100 a lot.  It's very well balanced, broad in response, very fast and detailed, and offers good presence.  It falls short though in the typical BA way, lacking texture.  In this case the note is hearty, sounds full, but the note isn't well textured/articulated, and the realism is sucked out.  It's sort of like the SE530 but from a different direction.  The SE530 had great dynamics and could articulate, but the note was super short and prevented the earphone from really fleshing out the sound.  The CK100 on the other hand fleshes out the notes well but doesn't articulate the notes hardly at all and suffers from a lack of information in another way.  Both are good examples of a potentially outstanding product cut down by very specific shortcomings.  Really, a lot of these earphones are like this, doing tons of things really well but falling short in this key area or that and suffering from it.
 
So who wins?
 
Well at the end of the day it mostly comes down to personal preference.  However, if one was to set aside personal skew, it comes down to the earphone that is the most technically correct, and that pretty much is the CK10.  If you could forgo one fault here or there, a lot of other earphones would end up being extremely good choices.  However, you do have specific goals, and for that, I kind of see the CK10 as still being the best. 
 
What about the OK1 bud?
 
It's an earbud.  The driver is quite good, extremely detailed, transparent, textured, great realism, etc.  For that, it's a great product if you didn't want an IEM.  It also requires amping, powerful amping, and does benefit from EQing as the response isn't ruler flat nor as extended.  Versus the CK10, I can see the CK10 as being a better selection due to a number of reasons.  Still I have to say that my earphone approach has been me buying a pile of products, testing, comparing, and selling off what didn't suit me best.  I sell until I'm back down to one product.  Then I buy some more to try out and compare.  Every time I've gone back to one, I've always been left with the OK1 earbud.  I've kept the Ok1 over the ER4S I owned and over the RE252 I owned.  The CK10 I had wasn't mine but borrowed from Joker, so I can't really say which I might have seriously kept.  I wasn't compelled to make that choice.  Even now I own the e-Q7, CK100, UM3X, Triple.Fi 10, RE252, and RE262, and I will soon work my way back to one product.  It hasn't yet been the time to really decide which one stays, but the OK1 has a good track record and is currently the title holder.  Why talk about the OK1 so much?  Well, if you don't actually need an IEM, it might be something that suits your goals.  Would you be better off just sticking to the CK10?  Perhaps, but it's hard to say.  I think there's a lot of really great products out there, many that at least I could be happy with if I only had that one.  I think you could be to with a small variety of products that suit your needs well.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 6:03 AM Post #111 of 134
I wouldn't recommend the ck10 to someone who's looking for great timbre. They're neither awful nor really good, just listen to a cello and compare their rendering with the real thing's soothing low vibrations. e-Q5/7 are better IMO and FX700 or EX1000 top them all. Just my 2c.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 11:15 AM Post #112 of 134
Wow, it must take a lot of time and effort to write such a long post, mvw2! Thanks for your input. Putting the CK10's timbre above everything else is quite controversial lol. But you seem to be talking more than just timbre but rather the naturalness of the whole spectrum. You didn't even mention the HJE900 which is in your inventory (I stalk people on Head-Fi 
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) I believe those render electric guitars better than anything else I ever heard. I hope I get a chance to listen to the CK10 sometime, then I can give some impressions on it's timbre. As for now, I'm waiting to produce some impression on the EX1000 
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 can't wait! 
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 12:11 PM Post #113 of 134
Hey @ mvw2, what about the C3? I'm on the fence about the entire sound spectrum, but with acoustic instruments alone (especially acoustic guitar and strings), I think it has one of the better timbres I've heard in a universal. I'm also finding that cables - to my ears - makes a difference. I'm using a DIY twag cable on my 1964-Q  now, and it really brings out the timbre for a more realistic sound to me.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 12:39 PM Post #114 of 134


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Wow, it must take a lot of time and effort to write such a long post, mvw2! Thanks for your input. Putting the CK10's timbre above everything else is quite controversial lol. But you seem to be talking more than just timbre but rather the naturalness of the whole spectrum. You didn't even mention the HJE900 which is in your inventory (I stalk people on Head-Fi 
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) I believe those render electric guitars better than anything else I ever heard. I hope I get a chance to listen to the CK10 sometime, then I can give some impressions on it's timbre. As for now, I'm waiting to produce some impression on the EX1000 
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 can't wait! 



100% agree with you on the HJE900, it's rendering of electric guitars is unparalleled. 
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 12:52 PM Post #115 of 134


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100% agree with you on the HJE900, it's rendering of electric guitars is unparalleled. 



100% agree on this as well. 
 
 Mvw2@, Nice long post. As usual. Even if I don't agree with half of it 
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Anyhow on Armatures = no life.
 
 
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 5:08 PM Post #116 of 134
Talking about timbre alone, no I wouldn't put the CK10 above all else, but my conversation above isn't all about timbre.  I was discussing the idea of sounding real or life-like.  The idea is not to simply have a lot of timbre and that's it.  That alone only guarantees certain aspects of sound reproduction, and in some cases you can go too far and end up borderline muddy (MTPG for a dynamic or Custom 3 for a BA for example).  The idea of sounding life-like and realistic is the idea of presenting a lot of things like speed, clarity, texture, dynamics, etc. linearly and proportionally correct. It's not about having the most timbre and that's it.  If that was the case, the Ortofon is a good choice for what you're looking for.  I know the EX1000 and FX700 are highly touted for a lot of texture.  I have not heard either personally.  Even the Radius DDM is well known for being quite textured and with a life-like sound, but it's also a bassy earphone.  It's a side-effect of trying to created a very robust note.  You want the decay long enough to allow texturing and articulating the note well, but you don't want to overdo it and make the presentation sound bass heavy or muddy.  Even the e-Q7 for example sounds a little warm due to the thick texturing of the notes.  It isn't a frequency response issue as the frequency response is flat through the range, but the note thickness creates a bass emphasized presence.  Now it's far from a bass heavy earphone, but the amount of decay and subsequent presence does warm the presentation of sound. 
 
Your words:
"So I have a PL30 and although it has far less detail and power as my W3, it seem to always do one thing better that is timbre. It sounds more realistic to my ears. I'm guessing this is due to the fact that it is dynamics and not BAs. So I'm looking for the best dynamics out there. I tried the IE8 but I didn't like it. In fact I preferred the PL30 sound sig. Don't like too much warmth or bass instead I lean more towards fast, cold, balanced, analytical. Of course one with timbre that betters the BAs. Thanks for your suggestions. Sorry for awkward post, I'm typing from my phone :"
 
Well, when I think about timbre I think adequate enough to adequately represent the sound, not specifically timbre dominant.  Realistic isn't a timbre monster.  It's life-like adequacy, not excess.  As well, you're asking about something fast, cold, balanced, and analytical.  Well, that sort of leans the opposite way, something fast, clean, lean, not bassy, not thick, not muddy.  This again sounds like the idea of adequacy over excess, so I would prefer to suggest things that are not excessive but rather adequate while offering other qualities.  The CK10 is one of these earphones.  The e-Q5 and e-Q7 might be other ones you should seriously try.  I would also toss in the ER4S as a serious choice for a lot of what you're looking for.  However, there are a lot of earphones out there that are well textured.  It's a matter of what else they offer and what shortcomings they might have.  At the end of the day you have to live with the total package and in that sense you want something that does timbre well for your goals but also balance, speed, and analytical presentation that you also seek.  The key is what does all of that well?  I wish I could definitively tell you something like the CK10 is your best choice.  It may be, but I also have not used every earphone out there.  There are many products with good timbre that I simply have not used.  Would the Ortofon be a better choice?  Maybe, if timbre is extremely desired at the cost of some other things.  So would the JVC FX700.  From what I've read on them, their timbre is amazing.  However, do they have the response and overall presentation you're shooting for?  That's questionable, more so than other options.  The same goes for the EX1000.  Does it fit everything you're looking for?  I have used neither, so I can only go by what other people have already mentioned.  James has used them, so he can comment more about not just timbre but also how it fits your desire towards "fast, cold, balanced, and analytical" and if something like the FX700 or EX1000 are still viable choices once we add those to the desire for more timbre.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 5:35 PM Post #117 of 134
I'm guessing you've not read the entire thread but I don't expect you to do that. My OP was a bit misleading I must admit. Halfway through the thread I realized I don't really needed the cold analytical signature but something that has great, not just good timbre. I know what you mean by the combination of everything to produce a "lifelike sound". However, I am looking for the best timbre (obviously) which is slightly different from what you are suggesting. This is mainly because I have yet to find an IEM that can reproduce the ambience of certain headphones like the MS2i. Even the IE8 has been quite a disappointment to me with its "massive out of the head soundstage". There are limitations to IEMs but one thing they can do well is timbre, proven by the HJE900 that I currently own.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 5:54 PM Post #118 of 134
No, I read a little at first and then started skimming through it. 
 
Well, you can give some of the timbre kings a go then and see what you think from there.  Things like the FX700, EX1000, Raduis DDM, Monster Turbine variants, or even the Atrillos should fit your goals well.  I might stick to those, read up one reviews, user comments, and comparisons, and see if a certain one stand out for your goals.
 
I do agree, the IE8 was great about big, but that's all it did, big.  Far was far and close was a hair less far.  There was little sense of proximity, intimacy.  I like the HFE900 as a cheap option.  It does well for its price: open, transparent and well balanced despite the bass and treble peak (built in Loud feature as I say since it's a 5dB peak right at 100Hz and 10kHz just like a Loud button).  It falls a bit short once you actually have money to spend though and can get something with better clarity, detail, dynamics.  I do think the HJE900 does well, but the driver isn't outstanding.  It gets away being decent because it is well balanced, transparent, and open sounding.  Beyond that, meh, if price is no object.  Dynamics are good for the price but low in range.  The clarity does suffer with a lack of detail although it's again fine for the price point.  The sound is a bit smoothed over and loses a bit of detail.  You get the thickness you like, but you don't get the details within that thickness.  The gain is really in it's openness and good transparency.  It's not easy to find and special when you do have it.  The frequency response is quite flat and well extended too, another nice aspect that's often hard to find.  You also get a good sized sound stage that reaches outside the head, again nice.  If you are fine with the frequency response of the HJE900, I might point you towards Denon as options.  Something like the old C700/C751 offers similar but with better dynamic range, articulation, and detail and still cheap.  Something like the EX1000 I'm sure is better but also $400+.  The FX700 is at least cheaper $350 but still pricey.  Frankly, I think something like the $99 Klipsch Custom 3 will even surprise you and out pace the Ortofon or even HJE900 in timbre and even offers a thicker presence than my UM3X (although less clarity/resolution).  Hop on the For Sale section and pick up a used Custom 3 and C700/C751.  You should be able to get both for about $200 total.  They're both cheap and offer a robust note presentation.  See what you think.  Heck, I'll even toss in the Radius DDM.  You should be able to get all 3 for around $300 total.  Try them out.  If you like one, keep it.  If you don't, sell them all and buy a FX700 or EX1000 instead.
 
Mar 3, 2011 at 8:41 PM Post #119 of 134
Thanks for the suggestions. I know the HJE900 isn't the best IEM out there and I did say it in my first impressions of it in the previous page. I also noted that the W3 beats it in almost everything especially detail retrieval, mids and treble. Technically speaking the W2, W3 and IE8 are all better but I seem to enjoy the realistic timbre in the HJE900 more than the the other's excellent all round performance. As another Head-Fier rightly said, "the HJE900 is a gem, albeit a rough one". Sure it can use more polish but it proves me that great timbre exists in IEMs. It is that same great timbre that seems to missing from other more expensive IEMs I had a chance to listen to. I can't say much about the Denons or Klipschs as I've never heard them. But specifically about electric guitars, the general consensus seems to be in favour of the HJE900 and I don't find it hard to believe considering I have an electric guitar myself. There is less difference in other instruments but I think it still does it slightly better than the W3.
 
The HJE900 is a stepping stone for me to other "timbre kings". I was curious to know what "great timbre" sound like and it didn't disappoint. That led me to my next purchase. I think I've already implied 2 posts before that I've bought a (used) EX1000 and I'm only waiting for it to arrive at my doorstep 
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 Then I can tell if it really has the combination of awesome timbre and low level resolution that I seek in my ideal IEMs (not that I doubt James' review, but I'll save my impressions of it until I actually have it with me 
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IMHO, all IEMs should get timbre right first of all, then focus on other factors like PRaT and detail. HJE900 got its foundation right and that's why I love it. Doesn't matter if it don't sound like an expensive amp that brings out all the details, as long as it actually sounds like an amp in the first place!
 
P.S. My 100th post! Yipee! 
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Mar 3, 2011 at 9:16 PM Post #120 of 134
Unfortunately, many earphones don't get timbre right.  I do think part of it is the technology (BAs) and part of it is trying to offer a sound that partially goes against timbre (very clean note, high speed, short decay, high detail, high separation, etc).  Sometimes there's a trade-off, and we as consumers need to know which trade-offs we are willing to live with and which we are not.  In some cases manufacturers get a lot of it right and actually offer a lot of desirable qualities rolled into one product.  It's nice when this happens since we don't really have to make many sacrifices at all.
 
Have fun with the EX1000.  I'm always curious about new things and what people have to say about them. 
 

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