[n3rdling]

Indeed you can say it about a number of headphones, though the HD800 in its' first year of release and the LCD2 are the two most extreme examples I can recall.  I think the whole point of this is that instead of the other 99% of us "getting over it" perhaps you 7 should try to allow the possibility for healthy discussion to take place instead of ringing its' neck. 

 

[Currawong]

Something that comes to mind is, at least since I've been here, the LCD-2s have been the only headphone that made quite a few people simply sell off every other headphone they own.  I don't recall any HD-800 owners doing that, but do recall O2 owners doing so. Not that this is a guage of anything, but while we can go over measurements to death, it's a rare few headphones that really make listening to music something exceptionally awesome.

 

[n3rdling]

I remember people doing that with the HD800 and also many well established members did it with the JH13 which was surprising at the time. 

 

[MrGreen]

I like where this thread is going

 
Currawong, I seem to remember several touting the HD800 as the "best headphone ever made" - indeed I probably believed it for a while with all the hype. I also remember seeing several people sell off gear, although I think it was mostly HD650 and HD600 owners. It certainly took a while for the "these are a bit bright" discussion to pop up (I think it was probably Skylabs review that was the first major statement on the issue?). I also seem to remember several HD800 members selling the HD800 after a few months of owning it, although I have only observed the LCD-2 being sold for reasons other than how they sound.
 
 
 
Quote:

/img/forum/go_quote.gif

FWIW, I think the only reason the LCD2s suffer from being overhyped is because when put through the only scientific tests that we know can be applied to headphone measurements, no other headphone has scored better.
 

 
The most convincing thing provided in these tests for me were the square wave responses. Since being "wow"'d by them, I have learned that they are probably incorrect for what we actually hear and actually show what it would be if they were used as speakers, rather than headphones. Which is fair enough, because speakers are darker than headphones, and many of the problems you see in the square wave responses provided by tyll is that the high frequencies are boosted. Indeed, there is even evidence of this in the LCD-2 graphs. I'm still waiting for Tyll to reply to such a question to confirm it (although I'm fairly convinced), but he seems to have gone AWOL for now.
 
In other measurements, other headphones have certainly scored similarly, or even better. I think I made several posts about the THD being better in the HD800, but I've long since left that thread after my crusade.
 
The LCD-2s waterfall plot is genuinely quite impressive, however in my opinion waterplots measure things that I don't consider particularly important relative to other characteristics in headphones.

---

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

Indeed you can say it about a number of headphones, though the HD800 in its' first year of release and the LCD2 are the two most extreme examples I can recall.  I think the whole point of this is that instead of the other 99% of us "getting over it" perhaps you 7 should try to allow the possibility for healthy discussion to take place instead of ringing its' neck. 

Count me in your 7 or out of your 7, I couldn't care less.  I just think that the idea of a healthy discussion being impeded is silly.
 
One says A is bad
another counters by saying no, A is not bad, but in fact is good.
 
One says the HD800 is too bright,
someone steps in and says no they find it not bright but perfect
 
Ones says the LCD2 is too dark
another chimes in to say it isn't dark at all.
 
No matter how you look at it, that is exactly how it breaks down.  What you wish for is the tide to turn...this may or may not happen pending trends and future releases.
 
Here's my criticism, a little more bite in the frequency above human voice and below treble wouldn't hurt the LCD2 IMO.

 

[n3rdling]

MrGreen:  IIRC a couple of us made comment of the treble peak at the CanJam LA debut and some posted the issue in their impressions.
 
spwild: No that's not quite right.  I'm  going to bed now but will post a more comprehensive reply tomorrow. nighty night

 

[MrGreen]

Quote:

MrGreen:  IIRC a couple of us made comment of the treble peak at the CanJam LA debut and some posted the issue in their impressions.

Probably. I admit I wasn't really in the camp to buy $1400 (~$2000USD locally) headphones at the time of their release so I'm probably a little less read on the issue than other members. For me skylabs review was probably the first criticism I heard off the headphone - which I first started reading about during the rather large flood of posts in the thread well after initial impressions - as Sennheiser and I don't really have that great a relationship.

 

[thesurfingalien]

 
Quote:

Very valid points, the limitations of his measurements are equal for both headphones though... so it makes the results comparable, just not definitive...
 
Demanding proof in an anechoic chamber is pretty ridiculous considering no one here (that I know of at any rate) listens in one. That information is actually most likely LESS useful than that of a normal room for all intents and purposes.
 
Dummy heads are best - yes. But there is also the fact that as far as I am aware, ear cancellations and other complexities are more common the higher the frequency... 50hz test tone really shouldn't be too bad in the grand scheme of things... especially for just some tid bit information...
 
Also he never said he did "open air testing" or anything, just said he tested it... Probably just put the mic in, or very close to the cup, obviously the further the placement the less useful..

 
Measuring in an anechoic room is ridiculous?  For a headphone it might be, but I can assure you that all the manufacturers do have a space that is sound-proof, to prevent outside noise interfering with the measurement.
 
I am sure there are very, very few people that listen to music in a "dead" room, but hat has nothing to do with adequate measuring.
 
BTW, the specs of the HD600 list a total THD of 0.1%.  I just have a little bit more faith in that number than what Killkli produced. 
 
Regards,
Peter
 
 
 

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

MrGreen:  IIRC a couple of us made comment of the treble peak at the CanJam LA debut and some posted the issue in their impressions.
 
spwild: No that's not quite right.  I'm  going to bed now but will post a more comprehensive reply tomorrow. nighty night

All I'm sayin is, let me bathe in the glowing satisfaction of belonging in the limelight, for it will not be long when I will be casted off in to the darkness.  My time will come, until then let me enjoy.  Your wish will be fulfilled...in due time.
 

 
Edit:  When I say "I", what I mean is my LCD2...she sings to me and this was what she wanted to express.  I'll just buy the next FOTM...so I might still remain, for better or worse! 

 

[Danz03]

If I'm not one of the 7, count me in too. 

 
That's why there need to be some kind of standard or reference point, and I really can't see how people can say things like these phones are bright/dark etc etc. Something that sounds darker than the HD800 is probably good, but something that sounds brighter would not be. Studios reference monitors are what used to mix all commercially available music with, and that's how producers and engineers intended their music to be heard, so I do think they should be used as the reference.
 
The human brain is really remarkable at adapting and taking out coloration in sound or music: if one were to think how the brain could take out the yellowish red tint of tungsten lights or the greenish yellow tint of fluorescent light without even trying, one can see why there are so many arguments on this forum regarding sound signature of headphones. I don't think I can make any judgement just with my ears alone, that's why I always needed some kind of reference, just as how I needed daylight bulbs or pantone charts to judge colour.
I first joined Head-Fi as I got the HD800s thinking they were the ultimate reference headphones based on people's comments and ratings, and I was totally disappointed as they are far from neutral or accurate, but yet, many people think they are. Their comments maybe totally valid but without some reference standard, they are more or less pointless. To me, and to people who's made a comparison, there aren't any headphones yet that sound as close to reference monitors than the LCD-2s.
 
Whether they are the best or not is very subjective but for me, I'd rather get my ears and brain used to something that's neutral sounding than something that sounds more exciting in comparison; as the brain will eventually get adapted to the coloration and probably would encourage me to get something with more and more coloration. That's the reason why even though I love listening to classical or jazz music with the HD800s, I do it very sparingly, in case my brain gets used to that sound signature. 

 
Quote:

Count me in your 7 or out of your 7, I couldn't care less.  I just think that the idea of a healthy discussion being impeded is silly.
 
One says A is bad
another counters by saying no, A is not bad, but in fact is good.
 
One says the HD800 is too bright,
someone steps in and says no they find it not bright but perfect
 
Ones says the LCD2 is too dark
another chimes in to say it isn't dark at all.
 
No matter how you look at it, that is exactly how it breaks down.  What you wish for is the tide to turn...this may or may not happen pending trends and future releases.
 
Here's my criticism, a little more bite in the frequency above human voice and below treble wouldn't hurt the LCD2 IMO.

 

[ysyung]

Agreed with you point. I'm disappointed with HD800. Actually, it is a good phone, but not neutral and balance enough comparing to LCD-2. While everyone response to different frequency response, there is no right or wrong. It is all about taste and preference. But, one critical consideration is... a lot of peoples saying that about amp matching, recabling... but at this moments I'm failed to find the best amp that match with HD800 to provide natural and balance listening experience, but the cost I have been investing for HD800 amping and recabling is more than 4x of the cost of HD800. Anyway, HD800 is classical reference for A/B test! And I will not sell it! BTW, I'm waiting for my replacement earpads for my Edition 10. Let's see the comparison between Edition 10 Vs LCD-2.

 

[turimbar1]

Sorry to derail the battle between the orthos and electrostats, but I found this article about conducting plastics and I think it could be used to make ortho membranes that are even THINNER than what they are currently, cool stuff http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-02-plastics-electricity.html

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

I like where this thread is going

 
Currawong, I seem to remember several touting the HD800 as the "best headphone ever made" - indeed I probably believed it for a while with all the hype. I also remember seeing several people sell off gear, although I think it was mostly HD650 and HD600 owners. It certainly took a while for the "these are a bit bright" discussion to pop up (I think it was probably Skylabs review that was the first major statement on the issue?). I also seem to remember several HD800 members selling the HD800 after a few months of owning it, although I have only observed the LCD-2 being sold for reasons other than how they sound.
 
 
 
 
The most convincing thing provided in these tests for me were the square wave responses. Since being "wow"'d by them, I have learned that they are probably incorrect for what we actually hear and actually show what it would be if they were used as speakers, rather than headphones. Which is fair enough, because speakers are darker than headphones, and many of the problems you see in the square wave responses provided by tyll is that the high frequencies are boosted. Indeed, there is even evidence of this in the LCD-2 graphs. I'm still waiting for Tyll to reply to such a question to confirm it (although I'm fairly convinced), but he seems to have gone AWOL for now.
 
In other measurements, other headphones have certainly scored similarly, or even better. I think I made several posts about the THD being better in the HD800, but I've long since left that thread after my crusade.
 
The LCD-2s waterfall plot is genuinely quite impressive, however in my opinion waterplots measure things that I don't consider particularly important relative to other characteristics in headphones.

---

I have a myriad of theories in my head that I wish Mr. Hertsen could test for me, but he is not under any obligation to test everyone's wild ideas.  I interpreted the square waves at 30hz as an indication supporting what I hear, that the LCD2s treble, whilst not as prominent as the HD800s, sounded more precise and cleaner to me...more resolution, transparency and tactile in the treble ranges.  This I theorised, is because as a soundwave approaches higher frequency, the peaks and troughs will become more angular and less rounded.  The 30hz signal is a signal containing a 90 degree angle...or infinite acceleration...the LCD2 is closest to infinite acceleration than any other measured headphone.  If it can track that angle more accurately, it will track treble waves more accurately.  My subjective hearing supports my crazy hypothesis...just ask my mind.
 


Quote:

If I'm not one of the 7, count me in too. 

 
That's why there need to be some kind of standard or reference point, and I really can't see how people can say things like these phones are bright/dark etc etc. Something that sounds darker than the HD800 is probably good, but something that sounds brighter would not be. Studios reference monitors are what used to mix all commercially available music with, and that's how producers and engineers intended their music to be heard, so I do think they should be used as the reference.
 
The human brain is really remarkable at adapting and taking out coloration in sound or music: if one were to think how the brain could take out the yellowish red tint of tungsten lights or the greenish yellow tint of fluorescent light without even trying, one can see why there are so many arguments on this forum regarding sound signature of headphones. I don't think I can make any judgement just with my ears alone, that's why I always needed some kind of reference, just as how I needed daylight bulbs or pantone charts to judge colour.
I first joined Head-Fi as I got the HD800s thinking they were the ultimate reference headphones based on people's comments and ratings, and I was totally disappointed as they are far from neutral or accurate, but yet, many people think they are. Their comments maybe totally valid but without some reference standard, they are more or less pointless. To me, and to people who's made a comparison, there aren't any headphones yet that sound as close to reference monitors than the LCD-2s.
 
Whether they are the best or not is very subjective but for me, I'd rather get my ears and brain used to something that's neutral sounding than something that sounds more exciting in comparison; as the brain will eventually get adapted to the coloration and probably would encourage me to get something with more and more coloration. That's the reason why even though I love listening to classical or jazz music with the HD800s, I do it very sparingly, in case my brain gets used to that sound signature. 

 

I don't know anymore.  This HRTF issue continues to throw a spanner in the works.  What I hear agrees with you...although I have never heard a calibrated professional monitor.  The only thing one can test is watching DVD movies, these soundtracks are recorded to a calibrated flat frequency (ie THX certifications and microphone calibrations, etc).  The LCD2 matches what I see on screen to what I hear on the headphone.  I then reference the scene to real life sounds, and this is spot on to me, eg a busy city and bustling city metropolis with traffic sounds like a busy metropolis...where I live and hear...everyday.
 
Edit:  I'm just throwing the LCD2s on right now, with fresh ears playing a Hi-Res copy of Meave O Boyle from Lynn Records (I think of you a lot when I listen to this record you gave me).  The only thing that sounds off to me right now, is a slight treble peak at the highest treble extension.  As my ears fatigue if listening at loud levels...I generally start to reach for my K701s.  At lower volumes, I never switch cans.

 

[Frank I]

Quote:

Something that comes to mind is, at least since I've been here, the LCD-2s have been the only headphone that made quite a few people simply sell off every other headphone they own.  I don't recall any HD-800 owners doing that, but do recall O2 owners doing so. Not that this is a guage of anything, but while we can go over measurements to death, it's a rare few headphones that really make listening to music something exceptionally awesome.

The He6  and LCD2 are the only cans I now own. I seem to grab and go more ofyen than not to the HE6 because of air and soundstage and transparency more so than the HD800 I owned and sold. So for now I have both planar and nothing else because IMO nothing else sound close to these two

 

[killkli]

Just to clear some point.
First, I think condenser type MIC is more than enough to measure THD. If the MIC is distorting, than the figure would only be greater not smaller.
So since I can get lower than 0.05% from one test, we should assume that the MIC's distortion is smaller than 0.05%.
 
Second, you mentioned that HD600's official measurement is smaller than 0.1% THD, that's true! I got even better result from it.
But please remember, it's THD with 1k sine wave! What I wanted to express is across spectrum measurements.
Since my LCD-2 is still under burning in, I didn't really recorded the measure result, just a quick test and post the impression data.
But I did have my HD600's result saved in my hard disk.
Here it is:
 
THD under 1k sine:

 
It's even greater with higher frequency:
THD@4k:

 
than the THD rise a little higher in lower frequency:
 
500Hz:

 
100Hz:

 
I didn't save lower frequency test result but it's not going to be better. On the other hand, the new LCD-2 has very consistent result from 100~2000Hz
It didn't do better with 1kHz sine wave than HD600, but just more consistent through the spectrum.
 
Quote:

 

 
Measuring in an anechoic room is ridiculous?  For a headphone it might be, but I can assure you that all the manufacturers do have a space that is sound-proof, to prevent outside noise interfering with the measurement.
 
I am sure there are very, very few people that listen to music in a "dead" room, but hat has nothing to do with adequate measuring.
 
BTW, the specs of the HD600 list a total THD of 0.1%.  I just have a little bit more faith in that number than what Killkli produced. 
 
Regards,
Peter