[John Willett]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuyDebord /img/forum/go_quote.gif Really? wasnt Sennheiser pairing with Lehmann in the early promotion of the HD800? Arent magazines, including many british like the (now american) hifi+, complying with the Lehmann BCL/HD800 combo suggested by Sennheiser?

No, not at all.

The first showing of the HD 800 was with the Benchmark DAC1. The UK showings have been with the Grace m902 (and this has been mentioned in several UK magazines); Germany have used the Lehmann.

Hi-Fi+ mention both the Grace and Lehmann, but the reviewer did not understand the Grace and did not switch on the boost that is in there for higher impedance headphones (he said the Grace was excellent, but did not go quiet loud enough). Again, both are mentioned in the new review in the October issue of Hi-Fi Choice.

Sennheiser UK use the Grace because I use the Grace m902B myself and think it's a great amp.. Not because we tried the HD 800 with every amp. on the market to find out which it works best with.

Sennheiser in Germany are more likely to demonstrate with a German amp., rather than an American one.

No, Sennheiser do not recommend any specific amplifier to use, you are free to choose what you like. Ask me personally and I will tell you I love the Grace m902B, but that is what *I* like and there are loads of excellent amplifiers I have not heard at all and have had no opportunity to try.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif unfortunately, 99% of this board apparently thinks this is crazy-talk.

Yes, and I daresay if this were the 14th century we'd be broken on the wheel before being castrated for such heresy. Fortunately here they can't identify us behind these silly names.

 

[JaZZ]

This is going to be a fruitless debate if each side insists in their standpoint. SmeelyGas and pp312 don't hear significant differences with electronics, so let's leave it at that. Myself I consider them subtle (compared to sound transducers), but nevertheless meaningful, the more so with the HD 800. However, it seems clear that no change of source or amp will convert SmellyGas to a HD 800 proponent. Personally I can accept that and don't feel offended.
.

 

[sunneebear]

This is kind of like the HD600 back in the days. The HD600 veil was almost blasphemy to some when it was brought up. Even though searches came up here and there of people who spoke about it, the issue still brought out some strong words. I was one of those that coward in a dark basement secretly modding the heck out of mine. Even today, I've gotten a comment for modding Gods gift to the human ear.

As for David, I've never seem one man with a can of spray paint and a pair of acid washed jeans make so many people angry. And for what???

 

[pp312]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsaliga /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the subtlety in the sonic flavor that different amps and sources bring to the table...there can be a fine line between subtle and imperceptible. And these kinds of debates get testy for two main reasons: 1) on the one hand people who say they hear subtle differences often overstate them and suggest there is something wrong with the people who don't hear them, and 2) on the other hand people who say they don't hear subtle differences don't leave a lot of room for the possibility that others do. So the two sides never see eye-to-eye on this subject, and topics that wade into this territory almost always devolve into personal attacks -- from both sides.

Actually there's another side to this. There's a whole section of the industry, including most audio engineers, who maintain that there cannot possibly be any audible difference between amps and CD players which are not faulty and do not exhibit measurable distortion, that perceived differences are the result of mismatched listening levels and/or self delusion. I once argued against it, but after 50 years of listening to hundreds of components I'm coming to the conclusion not that there is NO audible difference between competently designed and fault-free equipment, but that there is no APPRECIABLE difference, and certainly nothing like the differences commonly described by certain rabid enthusiasts--nor anything like the difference between speakers, headphones or, for that matter, CDs. This is why I wax sceptical when someone posts that he hates a headphone and is deluged with replies urging him to upgrade his amp or CD player. If he liked the sound but was slightly troubled by occasional sibilance or whatever, a change of amp or player MIGHT help, but it will not effect the sort of turnaround people are suggesting. If it does, then my hearing has been seriously faulty for 50 years and I've somehow been the victim of subconscious denial despite having spent thousands of dollars changing amps and CD players in an attempt to get substantially better sound.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is going to be a fruitless debate if each side insists in their standpoint. SmeelyGas and pp312 don't hear significant differences with electronics, so let's leave it at that. Myself I consider them subtle (compared to sound transducers), but nevertheless meaningful, the more so with the HD 800. However, it seems clear that no change of source or amp will convert SmellyGas to a HD 800 proponent. Personally I can accept that and don't feel offended. .

I used to believe amps, cables, DAC's, etc. made dramatic differences in sound. Why wouldn't they? They look nice, they cost a lot, and everybody and their mother "knows" they make a difference. Then I read the magazine articles that failed to confirm these differences. I became angry, kind of like the reactions I get when I suggest this to people. I thought the authors of those articles were buffoons. Then, I tried to see if I could hear a difference myself. At first, i convinced myself that I could and that the articles were wrong. But eventually I realized that if there were differences, I could not reliably detect them anymore, especially when blinded. So that's how I came to my conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pp312 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, and I daresay if this were the 14th century we'd be broken on the wheel before being castrated for such heresy. Fortunately here they can't identify us behind these silly names.

Remind me, what happened to Galileo when he suggested the world was round?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then be satisfied with your gear and leave everyone else alone.

I am very satisfied with my gear, actually. And if you don't like hearing opinions and facts that are not consistent with your, then please add me to your ignore list. To be honest, I remember your name because your responses have been by far the most abrasive and offensive to me - they are extremely presumptive to the point where they lose their credibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, what's crazy is that you are asking questions in a pretence of looking for knowledge, but really are only looking for people to validate your opinion.

If it makes you feel better, you can tell yourself that.

Quote:

For this reason, the people who really can discuss the science of electronics and could explain things to you aren't going to give you the time of day, because they just see you as a time-wasting troll.

I doubt that. The few questions that I did ask were perfectly legitimate. For instance, when I asked why "power" made such a difference in Stax amps, when the electrostatic headphone load had kilo-ohm resistance and was capacitative (i.e. miniscule current flow), people became angry. Someone even offered an explanation, but misapplied and used the wrong formula, and he also became angry. People here just want to accept things that make them feel good. "Oh, $1000 on an amp made my headphones sing!" They don't want to know if the frequency response, phase, and distortion are almost identical to a CMOY. In fact, they might become irate if you ask a questions along these lines. (just an example)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Amen. There's a reason he is on my ignore list...

Thank you. Others are welcome to join in with Kees. It'll make everyone happier, including me.

 

[GuyDebord]

And after more than a year, the thread rises from the dead, its alive! Things do come back to hunt and remind us... Once the untouchable was the hd800 and now the LCD2, when will we learn.... fad is what Freud taught us more than a century ago, it is what controls the masses.
 

 

[Gwarmi]

Quote:

And after more than a year, the thread rises from the dead, its alive! Things do come back to hunt and remind us... Once the untouchable was the hd800 and now the LCD2, when will we learn.... fad is what Freud taught us more than a century ago, it is what controls the masses.
 

There's a few threads burning the T1 at the stake too as we speak. Although the Beyer never attained the status of 'flavor of the multiple month'

 

[oqvist]

Quote:

And after more than a year, the thread rises from the dead, its alive! Things do come back to hunt and remind us... Once the untouchable was the hd800 and now the LCD2, when will we learn.... fad is what Freud taught us more than a century ago, it is what controls the masses.
 

Had my Hd 800 for several months now and sadly I am totally agreeing with your review .
 
LCD-2 is the real deal though. Question is what is there to learn? That we have different ears and tastes perhaps.

 

[Skylab]

Right - what must be learned is that there will never be universal agreement about ANY headphone. For any given headphone, some will love it, some will not. I didn't care for the HD-800 and love the LCD-2, but I understand why others feel differently. Some people get so obsessed with their affection for their favorite, though, that they can be downright nasty to people who don't feel the same way, and that is a shame.

 

[GuyDebord]

Quote:

Had my Hd 800 for several months now and sadly I am totally agreeing with your review .
 
LCD-2 is the real deal though. Question is what is there to learn? That we have different ears and tastes perhaps.

I would take the LCD-2 over the hd800 anytime, saying that, I wouldn't get the Audeze's, still a lot of critical deficiencies for my ears.
 
Skylab, I agree completely with your recent post to the thread, this is what needs to be learned.

 

[asdfghjkzxcvbnm]

Quote:

Now, as a professional designer, I can say that these are mechanically very well designed and executed, but the aesthetic side of it is bad, the fake space cadet / futuristic look is simply not coherent and very exaggerated to the level of grotesque, It is the perfect example of an over-designed object. I remember writing once that they looked like a power ranger headset from toys r us. 
 

 
But these look amazing...

 

[BeyerFan]

Quote:

To my eyes the HD 800 looks special but not particularly beautiful (not more so than on the pictures), but it feels very solid and is certainly extremely well built – form follows function.

There are several folks here who feel the HD800 looks like a plastic toy.

 

[DoggieHowzer]

Quote:

 
But these look amazing...

 
I am with GuydeBord. The HD800s do look like a cheap toy to me. 5 to 10-year old boys would love them as some sort of a Star Wars super headgear though. I understand that aesthetics are something that is quite personal, though I feel the HD800s look like an elaborate design that looks pretty awkward on the head of anyone. The earcups look pretty hideous to me. Sorry. I would just giggle quietly whenever I see someone wearing one of these. The more simple, subtle and clean looks of other designs such as the Beyerdynamic T1 for example, looks much classier (and unoffensive) or unobtrusive, to my eyes. If someone doesn't have any knowledge on headphones and are not into headphones, he would surely think that the HD800 is a $15 toy from Toys'R Us instead of an audiophile gear.
 
On a more serious note, personally I have never warmed up to the sound of the HD800s. The description on the title of this thread is quite apt in describing the sonics of the headphones.

 

[BeyerFan]

That just reaffirms my thoughts on the HD800. The fact is it's just an overpriced toy. Owners are just playing up the hype and defending the HD800 for its quality but the fact is there are other designs out there that not only give higher levels of musicality to the listener but do not look like a plastic toy.