[nick n]

  I have slight question, how does the Monitor-7 compare to the Monitor 10-II?

Does anyone actually own a Monitor 7 at all in Head-fi? Or outside of here for that matter. Nothing at all except the usual catalog listing site. Aesthetically appear like a slightly different coloured SE-650, of course I doubt it sounds the same right.
Am I reading that spec on the 650 right, they can take up to a watt input...

 

[takato14]

I have slight question, how does the Monitor-7 compare to the Monitor 10-II?

No idea, but the 10-II sounds ******* brilliant. It's the best monitor I've ever used, and one of the most resolving headphones I've ever used as well.

Its flat, its comfortable, it isolates, its ridiculously detailed, it has amazing bass AND treble extension, it has astoundingly low distortion (orthodynamic levels of low, im not even kidding), and it's got a massive soundstage. And it does all of these things out of almost anything; they aren't even remotely hard to drive.

They're ALMOST flawless, but there are some issues with the enclosure and the lowest bass could be a bit cleaner. Other than that I have no gripes with them; they're amazing.

 

[nick n]

Almost flawless in this place is hard to find !  So the 10-II and not the 10-R Arrgh I'll never figure this out, Guess I need to once and for all.
ok got it now.

 

[takato14]

  Almost flawless in this place is hard to find !  So the 10-II and not the 10-R Arrgh I'll never figure this out, Guess I need to once and for all.
ok got it now.

The 10R is a remake of the 10-II, and uses the same basic design, with newer materials and possibly different (tighter?) tolerances. It might be better, but it also might be worse. I won't know until I find one.
 
The 10-II had a critical flaw that caused it to be very rapidly recalled/discontinued. I'm not sure exactly how long it took, but it was short enough that very few (if any) were ever exported from Japan, hence why they're so uncommon in the US. And since it was recalled, most pairs that do show up are NOS pairs that were probably found in old factories.
 
The 10R is a different case I believe: it never took off because when it was released, Pioneer was no longer considered a good brand by the general public, and it was quite expensive for its time.

 

[nick n]

Thanks a bunch for that.
It got sort of confusing but now I see the timelines.
And a recall holy wowza.  Guess I need to pounce on one instantly. I seem to be attracted to and atract the rare stuff ( more fun/interesting but always a pitfall or two ) At least the close to NOS aspect is favourable!
You find yours in the usual places or ?
 
I always enjoyed the excellent industrial stylings of them, along with those Kenwoods and Technics.
 
Tightening up tolerances is not always a good thing.
thanks!

 

[takato14]

Thanks a bunch for that.
It got sort of confusing but now I see the timelines.
And a recall holy wowza.  Guess I need to pounce on one instantly. I seem to be attracted to and atract the rare stuff ( more fun/interesting but always a pitfall or two ) At least the close to NOS aspect is favourable!
You find yours in the usual places or ?

I always enjoyed the excellent industrial stylings of them, along with those Kenwoods and Technics.

Tightening up tolerances is not always a good thing.
thanks!

They were very rare on US eBay until recently; almost 10 pairs have shown up within a month, at least half of which were NOS. I bought two of those pairs, one in meh shape and one NOS, though I am trading the NOS pair for a Toshiba HR-810.

Oh, and the design flaw I mentioned is with the headband. The black inner half of the adjusters is very thin and prone to cracks. The slider can literally ******* explode if the headband is opened too far when placing them on the head.

Another issue is that a lot of pieces of the headphone are held together with glue, including the magnet in the driver capsule. This glue failed on one of my pairs in shipping, causing the magnets to bounce around in there. Yeah. Talk about a heart attack when I first opened them. I fixed it with some superglue but I cant help but notice a minute difference in performance between these and the NOS pair, with the NOS pair being the better one. I fear mild voice coil damage, which is irreparable, but it could just be psychoacoustics due to the fact that I will be trading the shiny, pretty one away soon. Another possibility is differences in the earpads and foam frontwave damping, as I did use the foam inserts from my original monitor 10 to replace the disintegrated ones in my first (poor) pair.

These design decisions were made with good intent, but proved disastrous. Pioneer took their customer feedback from the M10-I to heart when making the 10-II, but unfortunately cut down on the weight just a little bit too much, resulting in a highly fragile studio monitor. A fragile piece of equipment in a studio. Yeah. We all know how well that's going to end.

So, if you do find a pair, they should be handled with the utmost care and love, though that is true for all headphones. You also might want to put zip ties around the sliders to hold them together if they start forming cracks, like this:





Cheers, hope you find a pair!

 

[nick n]

I'll be looking that's for sure. This history is all really interesting.

 

[nick n]

Quick update
 While browsing for other things I happened across this listing for aftermarket SE-450 replacement pads! What are the odds of that.

 Anyhow I have used the seller myself multiple times and he has always been top notch.
 
So here is a pic of the SE-450


and here are those pads
 Unless you are going to scavenge some originals from another set, or sit down and carefully roll your own to spec size, these don't seem all that bad.
Keep it in mind, and if someone digs up some actual new old stock pads from some dusty warehouse or audio store clearance, please link it up.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Replacement-Cushion-Ear-Pads-Foam-For-Vintage-Old-SE-450-SE-450-DJ-Headphone-/251596461126?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3a94515446
 
By the way I did ask the seller at one point to sell me some of his thinner foam earside insert discs seperately once, still using them  to this day in various projects, it's hard to find the thin stuff.
My have been the same as what was included in his Philips 9000 listing. Can't hurt to ask if he will assuming you have trouble finding thin stuff for the driver surround area on the baffles.
( always ask your buds for their new motherboard tray foam from their boxes, they'll think you are nuts, and they will be right )
 
Guessing you can use these pads on other similarly shaped models also. (?) Monitor 10 also (?)
* looking at listing I see they do come with a small oval foam disc set, might be very thing however .

 

[GREQ]

 
 While browsing for other things I happened across this listing for aftermarket SE-450 replacement pads! What are the odds of that.

If you said "replacement headband" I would have got excited. 
I bought a set of these for literally 1 euro, but with no inner headband thinking "I can just cannibalize this for parts". 
After listening to it though I don't have the heart to disassemble it. Sure it's 'low-fi' but the FR and smoothness are really great.

 

[takato14]

 
Sure it's 'low-fi' but the FR and smoothness are really great.

I've had a lingering suspicion that the Monitor 10-II is slow (or "lo-fi", as you put it) for a while, but the more I listen to it the less I am inclined to believe that. 
 
The headphones just seem to sort of disappear; real instruments sound real and nothing bleeds into anything else, I don't hear an attack speed, or a decay speed, I hear the instrument in a space around my head. 
 
Additionally, the diaphragm in these is absolutely absurdly responsive; I can see it move when I gently blow into the earcups and I was able to move it with a piece of upholstery thread inserted into the baffle plate. My friend tried this with his AKG Q701 and nothing happened at all. The same is true for all of the DR-Z headphone drivers (especially the Z7).
 
When I feed it a dense track (Kite by Necro Facility), everything is just gloriously separated into its own space without any noise or B/S. But at the same time, when I feed it a really speedy track (Midnight Express by Extreme), the guitar notes sound sloppy, as if someone is trying to play the instrument too quickly and as a result is very inconsistent with his note duration, whereas the Z7 makes his playing sound fine.
 
Perhaps the Z7 has equally fast attack, but slower decay than the M10-II, causing instruments to sound fuller than they really are? 
 
I don't know. Headphones are mysterious creatures.

 

[GREQ]

 

 
Sure it's 'low-fi' but the FR and smoothness are really great.

I've had a lingering suspicion that the Monitor 10-II is slow (or "lo-fi", as you put it) for a while, but the more I listen to it the less I am inclined to believe that. 
 
The headphones just seem to sort of disappear; real instruments sound real and nothing bleeds into anything else, I don't hear an attack speed, or a decay speed, I hear the instrument in a space around my head. 
 
Additionally, the diaphragm in these is absolutely absurdly responsive; I can see it move when I gently blow into the earcups and I was able to move it with a piece of upholstery thread inserted into the baffle plate. My friend tried this with his AKG Q701 and nothing happened at all. The same is true for all of the DR-Z headphone drivers (especially the Z7).
 
When I feed it a dense track (Kite by Necro Facility), everything is just gloriously separated into its own space without any noise or B/S. But at the same time, when I feed it a really speedy track (Midnight Express by Extreme), the guitar notes sound sloppy, as if someone is trying to play the instrument too quickly and as a result is very inconsistent with his note duration, whereas the Z7 makes his playing sound fine.
 
Perhaps the Z7 has equally fast attack, but slower decay than the M10-II, causing instruments to sound fuller than they really are? 
 
I don't know. Headphones are mysterious creatures.

Well, 'lo-fi' might be a little harsh, but it does feel like there is a layer or two missing with the SE-450.
I spent some time this evening EQ'ing (by ear) this headphone in Foobar close to subjective/objective 'perfection' (whatever that is).
Especially the dynamics are a little too 'flat' sounding, not enough definition between loud and quiet, and not enough agility and dynamics with quiet music/moments.
So goes the same with micro-details you might otherwise hear with other better headphones - breathing between song or the weight of fingers strumming a string. Just missing. A little lifeless.
 
But wow, quite a wide soundstage for an old closed can. Some pretty decent positioning too.
But its party-piece is it's sensitivity and potential volume - these things could almost double up as portable loudspeakers!  - just leave them lying on your desk with both earpads touching to make a seal, crank up the volume and try to hold back your grin! 
The most amazing thing is that I can't detect any significant amount of distortion at these potentially ear-bleeding volumes. Really impressive drivers.

 

[takato14]

 

 

 
Sure it's 'low-fi' but the FR and smoothness are really great.

I've had a lingering suspicion that the Monitor 10-II is slow (or "lo-fi", as you put it) for a while, but the more I listen to it the less I am inclined to believe that. 
 
The headphones just seem to sort of disappear; real instruments sound real and nothing bleeds into anything else, I don't hear an attack speed, or a decay speed, I hear the instrument in a space around my head. 
 
Additionally, the diaphragm in these is absolutely absurdly responsive; I can see it move when I gently blow into the earcups and I was able to move it with a piece of upholstery thread inserted into the baffle plate. My friend tried this with his AKG Q701 and nothing happened at all. The same is true for all of the DR-Z headphone drivers (especially the Z7).
 
When I feed it a dense track (Kite by Necro Facility), everything is just gloriously separated into its own space without any noise or B/S. But at the same time, when I feed it a really speedy track (Midnight Express by Extreme), the guitar notes sound sloppy, as if someone is trying to play the instrument too quickly and as a result is very inconsistent with his note duration, whereas the Z7 makes his playing sound fine.
 
Perhaps the Z7 has equally fast attack, but slower decay than the M10-II, causing instruments to sound fuller than they really are? 
 
I don't know. Headphones are mysterious creatures.

Well, 'lo-fi' might be a little harsh, but it does feel like there is a layer or two missing with the SE-450.
I spent some time this evening EQ'ing (by ear) this headphone in Foobar close to subjective/objective 'perfection' (whatever that is).
Especially the dynamics are a little too 'flat' sounding, not enough definition between loud and quiet, and not enough agility and dynamics with quiet music/moments.
So goes the same with micro-details you might otherwise hear with other better headphones - breathing between song or the weight of fingers strumming a string. Just missing. A little lifeless.
 
But wow, quite a wide soundstage for an old closed can. Some pretty decent positioning too.
But its party-piece is it's sensitivity and potential volume - these things could almost double up as portable loudspeakers!  - just leave them lying on your desk with both earpads touching to make a seal, crank up the volume and try to hold back your grin! 
The most amazing thing is that I can't detect any significant amount of distortion at these potentially ear-bleeding volumes. Really impressive drivers.

Hm, I have noticed that the 10-II sometimes lacks impact, but that's source-dependent so I don't think it's what you're describing about the SE-450 when you say "flat". I've never even desired to take an EQ to the 10-II either; these things just do everything, the treble is downright glorious, the mids are smooth as butter, and the bass hits HARD when it's in the track (and as mentioned earlier, not at all when it's not).
 
And yeah, Pioneers monitor drivers have absurd max inputs for their day. The 10-II sports 1500mW, and the 10R does double that. I'm also pretty sure the 10-II has neodymium magnets; the sensitivity is ridiculously high for their time period as well. Similar lack of distortion when cranked, as you mentioned. It's kind of ridiculous; I find myself having difficulty keeping my listening volumes at a safe point because they go damn loud without sounding unpleasant.

 

[GREQ]

The 10-II sounds like it's quite a lot better than the lower end SE-450.
It's definitely a upside-down U-shaped FR curve I'm hearing that puts too much emphasis on upper mids, and I doubt it's suffering from my Odac + O2 combo - which is ever so slightly treble happy and very detailed.

 

[takato14]

  The 10-II sounds like it's quite a lot better than the lower end SE-450.
It's definitely a upside-down U-shaped FR curve I'm hearing that puts too much emphasis on upper mids, and I doubt it's suffering from my Odac + O2 combo - which is ever so slightly treble happy and very detailed.

Yeah, what I hear from the 10-II is definitely not a frown/midcentric FR, its almost a completely flat line from sub bass to high treble, though the upper mids occasionally sound a bit uneven (not rough though, still smooth as butter) and the bass only has weight when the track has <25Hz content so it'll probably sound bright to most. 
 
This isn't out of a "reference-grade" amp though so I expect the FR issues will vanish when I feed it a good source (like the O2/ODAC combo). I'd rather use them with a high current amp like the Matrix M-Stage I'm getting for my Z7 but I fear that the output impedance will be too high and cause bass problems. 

 

[GREQ]

Picked up an SE-550 today (almost completely identical to the SE-450).
I was REALLY hoping this to be a step-up/upgrade/light-in-the-dark..... but wow, it was underwhelming. 
 
But to satisfy curiosity; the 550 does have a different driver to the 450, has better instrument separation and superior resolution and a more balanced FR response that only slightly lacks in sub-bass and treble upwards of 8KHz. They both suffer from a bloated mid-bass and have what I like to call a 'closed' sound.
Don't get too excited though, they sound about as similar as they look.