[Navyblue]

I agree that this is something that should be talked about more often here, however at the moment it's still pretty heretical.

A typical pre amp with headphone out consume about 10-15 watts, I'd guess that a SS dedicated headphone amp isn't going to consume less power, especially if it is class A.

And I guess tube amp is going to consume more power than SS amp?

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navyblue /img/forum/go_quote.gif And I guess tube amp is going to consume more power than SS amp?

200 watts man! Zana Deux all the way!

 

[tfarney]

I'm for saving the planet as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure some of the arguments here hold water. First of all, the amount of electricity our amps consume is not the only place we can have an effect. We are directly responsible for the amount of energy consumed in the manufacture of the second or third or fourth amp as well, because they're not just going to build them anyway. It doesn't work that way. Our demand for the product drives the production of the supply. Then there is the problem of disposing of all our extra toys when they die. They may last long enough that we don't have to think about it personally, but by creating the demand for them in the first place, we created the need to bury or recycle them in the last place.

So it is all a part of the equation, not just the power use. Power use might be the big one, though. To that point, if we're that concerned about the planet, none of us will ever buy tube amps or, for that matter, SS class A amps again. Hungry little suckers that they are. A/B is even dicey. We need to demand the development of class D, class T, even full digital headphone amps.

Then there are the folks who are always trading up or adding on, driving demand and manufacturing constantly. In the long run, I'll bet they use more energy than the guy who uses one amp, for speakers and phones for 20 years or more.

They're probably having more fun, though. They're certainly creating more jobs. It's not easy being green.

Tim

 

[Navyblue]

Btw, Head-fi causes people turn on their PC all day and buy unnecessary stuffs.

 

[Penchum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif First of all, the amount of electricity our amps consume is not the only place we can have an effect. We are directly responsible for the amount of energy consumed in the manufacture of the second or third or fourth amp as well, because they're not just going to build them anyway. It doesn't work that way. It's not easy being green. Tim

What I had said was this:

"Trying to equate the manufacturing processes into a personal "carbon (green) footprint" doesn't pan out to be much of a "personal" incentive. They are going to crank up those robots and make them anyway, because they are still selling. Buying older receivers/dedicated amps for headphone purposes doesn't equate well either. The damage has already been done, years ago. What they draw now, is the only true carbon footprint consideration in these nice old units.

The only place where you and I are empowered to make a difference, is in how much we "draw" from the grid. The choices we make may have only smaller returns associated with them, but multiply that by a large number of people making similiar choices, and the returns get big fast."



I never considered this to be an argument from the beginning and I'd really like for it not to be. It is a question for everyone to consider. As you can see from what I posted, as long as they are "selling", they will make them, which is what you were driving at as well.

On a personal level (which was what I was talking about) we have very few things we can DO on a daily basis. Making choices that reduce our draw on the grid is the biggest impacting thing we can do. Sure, our voice along with other voices may change how things are manufactured and how much they draw, but these are not "personal" choices, they are social based choices.

On the first, second, third and fourth item/amp thought, it is true the energy was expended to create them, whether they went to one, two, three or four people. The only variable that falls into the "personal" level, is how many can you listen too at one time. Even the best of us, can only listen to one at a time.

So, we are really back to the original question and thoughts on it. I haven't got a reply on the separate headphone amps yet, but I will post it when it arrives.

I realize the position "using an old receiver or integrated amp just for headphone use isn't green", is not a friendly position on the surface. However, I think it needs exploring and at minimum, should be considered by the buyer/owner on a personal level.

I have an even larger problem with power draw, so I thought I'd share what I decided to do about it. I have two complete analog systems that draw a tremendous amount of power. I have already decided to run them on "off peak" hours, due to the heavier draw, and mostly on the weekends.

Knowing this to be my new reality, I have put together a small digital mini-system, for daily use. All I had to buy, was a T-amp. If I use my Zune80 (lossless) as a source, I'm using very little power whether I'm listening to speakers via the T-amp, or plugging my headphones into the Yamaha pre-amp, I'm using as a controller. The max this mini-system can draw is less than one average light bulb worth of power. It is clean and dynamic and is a pleasure to listen too, so it really doesn't represent a sacrifice on the audio front. Perhaps, this kind of compromise is worth consideration and the expenditure(s)?

 

[tfarney]

No argument here either, Penchum, just discussion. I didn't feel challenged or offended by your discussion of the green issues with using high-powered speaker amps to drive phones. But green issues are infinitely complex issues. The whole picture is almost never in a simple view of the power being consumed by a product already in-market. I'm out of work. I have too much time on my hands. I took it to the next level.

Tim

 

[Penchum]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif No argument here either, Penchum, just discussion. I didn't feel challenged or offended by your discussion of the green issues with using high-powered speaker amps to drive phones. But green issues are infinitely complex issues. The whole picture is almost never in a simple view of the power being consumed by a product already in-market. I'm out of work. I have too much time on my hands. I took it to the next level. Tim

Me too! Disabled, can't work. Hate it.

 

[scompton]

I usually hear Tim's point made about vehicles which require a lot of energy to produce. Supposedly, it would take years of driving a clunker that gets bad gas mileage to make up for all of the energy used to make one new car. Eventually, if people aren't buying as much, the robots don't get turned on. Car companies are shutting down whole plants because of lake of demand of trucks and SUVs.

I've also seen similar arguments made against ethanol as fuel. It takes almost as much fossil fuel as you end up getting in ethanol.

I'm not sure how much energy is used to create an amp or headphone, probably not much. But it is a good argument for buying vintage gear.

 

[tfarney]

Quote:

But it is a good argument for buying vintage gear.

Yes, but to Penchum's point, it's a good argument probably cancelled out by the excess energy consumption of the vintage gear.

Tim

 

[scompton]

For me it's probably not an issue because I listen to stats 75% of the time, so I need speaker terminals.

This thread makes me wonder how much my NAD draws. It's a medium powered amp, 55 watts. It also has low value resistors so it has a very powerful headphone jack. The volume pot stays very low, rarely going past 8 o'clock, even with hard to drive headphones.

Since I don't know that much about the internals of electronics, I don't know how much this effects the current drawn by the amp. Does how you're using an amp effect how much current is drawn, or does the power supply draw full power all the time the amp is on?

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I don't know that much about the internals of electronics, I don't know how much this effects the current drawn by the amp. Does how you're using an amp effect how much current is drawn, or does the power supply draw full power all the time the amp is on?

I believe power consumption is variable based on how loud you have the amp, the speaker draw, etc. Most specifications state a standby draw and maximum (volume at full blast and speakers capable of eating up all that power) draw.

If you'd like to find out how much energy the amp is consuming then you can buy a meter that measures that. It fits between a device and the wall socket. I'm not sure where you could would buy one, but I'm guessing a large electronics store like Frys might have one.

It's interesting that studies have shown when people see how much power they are using via a meter they reduce consumption. Same behavior occurs with cars and a fuel consumption gauge that changes depending on speed/acceleration, and even people learning how many calories they are eating.

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfarney /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, but to Penchum's point, it's a good argument probably cancelled out by the excess energy consumption of the vintage gear. Tim

Well that depends. Are we talking vintage tube gear or vintage SS gear? While full digital amps like the Panny might sip at power, a lot of current day SS amps really eat up power. Even the 40W NAD 315BEE uses 185W at max draw. Some of the HK 7.1 channel receivers are up in the 1500W range. I'm curious as to how much power vintage SS stuff uses. It may not be as bad as we think.

 

[scompton]

I think I'll try to find one of those meters. I doubt I'll change much because I don't think I use all that much power. Our electric bills are fairly low unless we run the AC.

We own a Prius which gives real time MPG. I've not changed how I drive that much, because I already was driving in an efficient manner. What I've noticed with the Prius is that the best highway mileage is between 45 and 50 mph. I don't feel too safe driving at those speeds on most highways.

I just drove home from New England last weekend. I had the cruise control set at 65 and I was one of the slowest cars on the road. I got between 48 and 50 mpg. I have on occasion been in heavy traffic that was moving at the ideal speeds and I get 75 mpg in those situations.

 

[Penchum]

On the back of most equipment is a tag showing the maximum watts. If you use this figure, all you have to remember is you're talking about the maximums. Some manufactures put other figures in with the units specs as well.

I don't want everyone to get the wrong impression of me. I love vintage equipment and have a ton of it.

I will never give up using my vintage systems. To me, they reproduce audio the way I like it best. I will however, limit my usage of them to off peak hours, so I feel I'm doing my part. Its just my way of taking responsibility for my part and taking what small steps I can to lighten the load a little. This is something not everyone is going to be able to do, or won't want to do. That is fine too.

This whole "green" thing is all about awareness. Once you buy in, you will find a way to lighten the load without it being a burden. I bought those new fancy fluorescent bulbs to replace incandescents throughout the house. I don't even notice the difference in the lighting any more, but I know they are doing their part for me.

 

[Navyblue]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since I don't know that much about the internals of electronics, I don't know how much this effects the current drawn by the amp. Does how you're using an amp effect how much current is drawn, or does the power supply draw full power all the time the amp is on?

Well, it depends on the design of your amp. If it is class A it draws full current even at idle (they are hot), then there are class A/B which draw half the current at idle. Class D are designed with power efficiency in mind. The relatively recent Class T are even more efficient.