[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course dealers get their special cost - not the point. Your post indicated that you knew how Ultrasone handled distribution to their dealers. So it seems that you too are speculating.

I never stated that I know how Ultrasone handled the distribution to their dealers, you are thinking too much ahead IMO, and probably you assumed that. If you did, sorry but that is not my problem, what I stated was simply what logic and common sense indicate.

But to make you happy, and just to satisfy your curiosity, I'm no speculating, just that there is absolutely no need of discussing how do I get certain information publicly, as it is not ethical (for me at least) to do it. As you probably know, I know a couple of guys there...same as other members had friends in other brands or manufactures, and for example, I have seen them talking and discussing things with John Grado, the people in Sennheiser, in Wadia, or are personal friends of Ray Samuels (what that is not so difficult, Ray is lovely), also personal friends of Mikhail, Tyll, Meier, etc...Nothing wrong on having friends related to this hobby directly, that is all what any of us will desire, to know from first hand, how things are done here in this fascinating hobby...

But again and to avoid any other speculation, I'm not involved in their commercial activities at all, other than purchased from them and send for repair a couple of heapdhones....But I have stated a couple of times before, I will not hesitate if they call me to be part of their team, as they have a lovely teamwork there (with a couple of very nice girls on top)....what else to ask for???

 

[gaijin]

After all this bickering, lets get back to the topic of headphone quality...

My take on the Proline 2500 is that their sound is too polite (sterile ?). The sound is nice and airy, smooth, instrument seperation is quite good, sounds "natural", but there is no depth, texture to the music. They just do not move you like other phones (HD650 and K1000 for me). I would describe them as "2 dimensional". If you listen to these phones long enough, your ear will adjust to their presentation and you will enjoy them more. But as soon as you switch back to other phones you can immediately see what is lacking. I can see why they are popular for studio recording. For musical enjoyment, they are just not my cup of tea.

Of course I will make no judgement on the Edition 9, as I did not keep them long enough. Maybe these phones can overcome the shortcomings of the rest of the Utrasone models.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaijin /img/forum/go_quote.gif After all this bickering, lets get back to the topic of headphone quality... My take on the Proline 2500 is that their sound is too polite (sterile ?). The sound is nice and airy, smooth, instrument seperation is quite good, sounds "natural", but there is no depth, texture to the music. They just do not move you like other phones (HD650 and K1000 for me). I would describe them as "2 dimensional". If you listen to these phones long enough, your ear will adjust to their presentation and you will enjoy them more. But as soon as you switch back to other phones you can immediately see what is lacking. I can see why they are popular for studio recording. For musical enjoyment, they are just not my cup of tea. Of course I will make no judgement on the Edition 9, as I did not keep them long enough. Maybe these phones can overcome the shortcomings of the rest of the Utrasone models.

Sterile means another thing IMO, sterile means that it is not musical, and I do feel the Prolines musical heapdhones. But I agree that it is more laid back and airy, than the Edition 9, or the K-1000, but it is more forward than the Senns. About being two dimensional, well, the soundstage is in front of you, as opposed to be in each side while listening to other heapdhones...
And while you switch back ot other heapdhones what you do, is just to listen again the unnatural presentation those offer, with a hole in the center, which you are used to though probably you will feel that you like more...Same as the crossfeed users, once you get use to it, you feel that you need it. But we have here a lot of purist, that will not agree on its use, and find it completelly unnecessary, I use it everyday...with any heapdhone, to remove that unatural feel I found in mostly all of them....

The Editions is a completelly different animal...once burned in, is IMO a beast!!!

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaijin /img/forum/go_quote.gif After all this bickering, lets get back to the topic of headphone quality... My take on the Proline 2500 is that their sound is too polite (sterile ?). The sound is nice and airy, smooth, instrument seperation is quite good, sounds "natural", but there is no depth, texture to the music. They just do not move you like other phones (HD650 and K1000 for me). I would describe them as "2 dimensional". If you listen to these phones long enough, your ear will adjust to their presentation and you will enjoy them more. But as soon as you switch back to other phones you can immediately see what is lacking. I can see why they are popular for studio recording. For musical enjoyment, they are just not my cup of tea. Of course I will make no judgement on the Edition 9, as I did not keep them long enough. Maybe these phones can overcome the shortcomings of the rest of the Utrasone models.

That brings up an interesting point, gaijin.

The Prolines are very good for studio use, but as a friend of mine once observed, "Which would you rather listen to in your living room - near-field monitors or your Polk LSi's?"

That answer is so easy... that now two of the Polks ARE my near-field monitors! (particularly the LSi-7's which move in function between being surround-sound-rears and studio near-field monitors - the LSi-9's stay put right where they are as they are my mains!)

I wouldn't call the Ultrasone Proline 750s sterile by any stretch, nor 2-dimensional, so that is a curious thing to hear about the 2500s. But there can be no doubt that these Proline 750s certainly are "missing" something which certain other headphones possess, that is, they are different. But, of course they will be! My in-ear Shure E4c's are not going to sound like my Portapros, and my Portapros are not going to sound like my Sennheiser PXC-250 noise reduction headphones, etc. The Proline 750's are "missing" those headphones' qualities as much as they are missing each other's.

I like the very "in-the-head" presentation of the Shure E4c and the similarly "in-the-head" experience of the Portapros or Senns, but I also like the "in-the-front" presentation of the Prolines (especially the "frontness" of content left and right of center). And for binaural or X/Y recorded material, nothing has ever beat the experience which the Proline's deliver.

I guess my point is: Anytime I switch headphones I'm going to be "missing" something that was present in the other model worn previously. It will be, by virtue of design differences, a thoroughly different experience.

I think Sovkiller's main concern is that people will "miss" the qualities of their other more familiar headphones so much that they never "gain" the experience that the Ultrasone's offer in such abundance. I myself am still learning these headphones, much as I slowly learned to spot the qualities of the Polks (speakers) over time that were beyond me to notice till I'd gotten some experience with them. Likewise, these Proline 750s are becoming more musical with every symphony or rock or jazz piece I audition using them. They have gone past that "near-field monitor" sound as I've gotten more familiar with them, and every few days offer me another surprise, especially with classical recordings, which I've been listening to quite a lot lately. I'm coming into the 230th hour with them (and the 50th hour of real listening time!) I listen to music with these about five hours a day at a sitting with occasional days off, so these are still pretty new to me.

Terry

 

[jpelg]

Well the Proline 750's arrived at work today. I quickly opened the box and plugged them directly into my PC's headphone-out jack and they sound like crap. They're going back immediately!
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Just kidding!

I wouldn't do that to y'all. Of course I will bring them home tonight and begin their prerequisite three bajillion hours of burn-in

. We'll see what happens after that.

First impressions of the box & presentation is pretty good - an outer cardboard box surrounding the nicer multi-fold one actually containing the headphones inside. There is a plastic seal must be broken to open them which may prevent returns though (not that I'm anticipating that, just saying...). The left foldout contains an extra set of velour earpads - nice! The right foldout contains the two replaceable cables, one coiled, one straight - double nice! (that's at least a US$30-40 value)

The headphones are laying flat in the center. Picking them up, they feel solid. Placing them on my head just for size they fit well, with a decent seal around the ears that should provide good isolation while still being comfortable. Honestly, they feel better than the 2500's I tried a few weeks back. Dunno why, as I assume they are basically the same can, except for the closed vs. open design.

Can't wait to get them home and begin the burn...

[size=xx-small]edit: to include the new Ultrasone emoticon.[/size]

 

[tbritton]

Congratulations, James! I agree - these are very nicely presented boxes and those niceties of earpads and cables are nice icing on the cake. You may be tempted as I was to just go ahead and listen to them, and if you do so you may witness as I did the interesting "phenonema" as those high and low peaks are smoothed out (and generate a couple interim new oddball peaks along the way!) Then again... maybe you'll just want to skip doing that!

I hope these become "as comfortable as an old pair of sneakers" for your ears!

Just want to say, "You're the man!" for going ahead and giving these a spin even after some negative first impressions could have just turned you off entirely. I hope your enjoyment of these proves to be a fitting reward!

Terry

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well the Proline 750's arrived at work today. I quickly opened the box and plugged them directly into my PC's headphone-out jack and they sound like crap. They're going back immediately! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Just kidding! I wouldn't do that to y'all. Of course I will bring them home tonight and begin their prerequisite three bajillion hours of burn-in . We'll see what happens after that. First impressions of the box & presentation is pretty good - an outer cardboard box surrounding the nicer multi-fold one actually containing the headphones inside. There is a plastic seal must be broken to open them which may prevent returns though (not that I'm anticipating that, just saying...). The left foldout contains an extra set of velour earpads - nice! The right foldout contains the two replaceable cables, one coiled, one straight - double nice! (that's at least a US$30-40 value) The headphones are laying flat in the center. Picking them up, they feel solid. Placing them on my head just for size they fit well, with a decent seal around the ears that should provide good isolation while still being comfortable. Honestly, they feel better than the 2500's I tried a few weeks back. Dunno why, as I assume they are basically the same can, except for the closed vs. open design. Can't wait to get them home and begin the burn...

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well the Proline 750's arrived at work today. I quickly opened the box and plugged them directly into my PC's headphone-out jack and they sound like crap. They're going back immediately! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Just kidding! I wouldn't do that to y'all. Of course I will bring them home tonight and begin their prerequisite three bajillion hours of burn-in . We'll see what happens after that. First impressions of the box & presentation is pretty good - an outer cardboard box surrounding the nicer multi-fold one actually containing the headphones inside. There is a plastic seal must be broken to open them which may prevent returns though (not that I'm anticipating that, just saying...). The left foldout contains an extra set of velour earpads - nice! The right foldout contains the two replaceable cables, one coiled, one straight - double nice! (that's at least a US$30-40 value) The headphones are laying flat in the center. Picking them up, they feel solid. Placing them on my head just for size they fit well, with a decent seal around the ears that should provide good isolation while still being comfortable. Honestly, they feel better than the 2500's I tried a few weeks back. Dunno why, as I assume they are basically the same can, except for the closed vs. open design. Can't wait to get them home and begin the burn...

James hope you will like them, congrats and welcome to the Ultrasone secret family...LOL...

IIRC the new models have a new improved headband, I know becasue mine broke in an stupid accident, and they replaced it. The new headband seems to be more solid, but more comfortable at the same time, maybe the shape at the arc over the head is a little different, also if the pads you previously tried in the 2500 were used, and smashed, as your ears get closer to the front panel, maybe you fell them more uncomfortable. But indeed they are almost identical to the 2500, just that the 2500 has the cups open at the back, and of course some internal differences on the drivers, but that has nothing to do with the comfort...

 

[tbritton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaijin /img/forum/go_quote.gif After all this bickering, lets get back to the topic of headphone quality... My take on the Proline 2500 is that their sound is too polite (sterile ?). The sound is nice and airy, smooth, instrument seperation is quite good, sounds "natural", but there is no depth, texture to the music. They just do not move you like other phones (HD650 and K1000 for me). I would describe them as "2 dimensional". If you listen to these phones long enough, your ear will adjust to their presentation and you will enjoy them more. But as soon as you switch back to other phones you can immediately see what is lacking. I can see why they are popular for studio recording. For musical enjoyment, they are just not my cup of tea. Of course I will make no judgement on the Edition 9, as I did not keep them long enough. Maybe these phones can overcome the shortcomings of the rest of the Utrasone models.

gaijin, I just wanted to touch upon this subject again briefly in an attempt to understand the language you are using and your experience. Not trying to defend the Ultrasones, I promise you. You obviously were impressed by these, but as you say, they are just not your cup of tea. That certainly is legitimate!

I'm listening to some Shure E4c IEMs - which I've never heard anyone call "sterile" for certain! - and thinking about the Portapros... I am noticing that those both seem to "engage" me in a more direct way as if I am "inserted into" the music, like I'm almost part of the sound. This is partly the effect of it being that the music is, indeed, "inside me", as these have a very inside-the-head presentation (though they both extend beyond my ears left and right, any "depth" of the soundstage "begins" inside of my head, that is, I am immersed inside of it.) The Ultrasone effect of the S-Logic presents the music in what people have often referred to as a "more speaker-like" presentation, which I can now understand. The music seems like it is "outside of me" more - like I am a witness to the instruments, not a part of them. At least that is what happened at first with the Proline 750s - I did experience that feeling of listening to near-field monitors during the beginning. Now I must be psychoacoustically interacting with the sound more, because the instruments are becoming more intimate feeling, even though they are still not "inside of me" in the same way as the Shures or Koss are. Not always - yet - but it is surprising to me what's going on.

Am I getting closer to understanding what you are meaning, gaijin? If so, I must agree that the differences are very pronounced, and will have to always be, as no amount of "getting used to" the Prolines' S-Logic presentation is going to turn them into the other presentation experience. So, I can understand one presentation being preferred over another as a matter of taste and certainly as a matter of preference experientially!

Terry

 

[Dexdexter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well the Proline 750's arrived at work today. Can't wait to get them home and begin the burn...

Well done, James! The burn-in certainly is a process and I sincerely hope you will be surprised and delighted with how they evolve.

Best, Dex

 

[ralphp@optonline]

I've been following along with this thread and have really enjoyed reading everyone's comments, impressions and observations regarding Ultrasone and other headphones. Being the owner of two pairs of Ultrasone Proline headphones (the 2500s and a pair 750s, recabled with Moon Audio Silver Dragon cable) I think that I might be qualified to add a few comments of my own to this on going discussion.

As Solkiller as hinted at the use of a headphone amp with a crossfeed circuit combined with the Ultrasone's S-Logic presentation I feel really makes the Ultrasones sound very "speaker like". I know that James (jpelg) has chided me for repeatedly making comparisons between the Ultrasones and loudspeakers but I can't help it, that's how they sound or rather that's how they image.

In my defense I will say that I came to this headphone hobby as part of my long time interest in audio equipment and music. Over the years I've managed to assemble what I feel is quite a nice sounding stereo system and I only want a comparable sounding headphone system. Therefore I tend to apply many of the things I've learned about loudspeaker based audio to headphone based audio. Of course I try to be reasonable when applying these so called pearls of audio wisdom and not do something stupid but for the most part the two hobbies do overlap to quite a large degree.

Anyway, back on topic. Another thing I've noticed about the Ultrasone headphones is that they are seem to be very sensitive to both amplification and source. I have two different Headroom Desktop amps at home, an older model which has the original desktop module and is powered by the simple "wall wart" and a newer model which has the 2006 max module and is powered by the Desktop Power Supply. In addition, the older Desktop amp is hooked up to a low end Sony SACD/CD player while the newer Desktop amp is hooked up to a much better Yamaha DVD player which also plays SACDs and CDs.

While all my headphones sound better when played through the new Desktop amp, the difference is really pronounced on the two pairs of Ultrasones. These headphones just seem to get better and better as the amp and source get better, now I'm just wondering where, if ever, they will top out.

 

[jpelg]

Both Alberto & Ralph use crossfeed extensively. I don't have such devices.

I guess I'm already starting behind the 8-ball

.

 

[MaZa]

Do you have any basic DIY skills Jpelg? Meaning, you know how to solder and stuff.

 

[jpelg]

I guess I can solder a fairly clean joint without burning myself. But I'm far from an accomplished technician, like we have around here.

Historically, I have not really enjoyed HR's version of crossfeed, finding it to rolloff the highs & round out the lows too much. More importantly, for headphones with an already decent headstage (ex. AKG K501 & K270S), it made them sound downright 'wonky'.

My limited experience with Meier's implementation is that it is more subtle, so if any, this would be a preferred method. I'm not planning to purchase a new amp atm, so at best an external x-feed box introduces the need for another set of interconnect cables.

Moh money, moh money...

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Both Alberto & Ralph use crossfeed extensively. I don't have such devices. I guess I'm already starting behind the 8-ball .

James,

The all Headroom amps have crossfeed circuits, the Meier/Corda amps also offer crossfeed and there are also crossfeed plugins available for various computer based media players such as iTunes, foobar2000 and Winamp. Just do a google search on "headphone crossfeed" and you'll get tons of info. In addition the Headroom web site has lots of info on how and why crossfeed works.

Like most everything in this wacky hobby of ours, some folks swear by it and some folks swear at it.

Edit: Sorry James, it seems that I misunderstood you when you stated that you have no such devices and though that you didn't know what the devices were. I see that that is not the case. I think you might like to give the newer Headroom amps another try since their crossfeed circuits are much cleaner than the older designs and the problems that you mentioned have been eliminated.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpelg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess I can solder a fairly clean joint without burning myself. But I'm far from an accomplished technician, like we have around here. Historically, I have not really enjoyed HR's version of crossfeed, finding it to rolloff the highs & round out the lows too much. More importantly, for headphones with an already decent headstage (ex. AKG K501 & K270S), it made them sound downright 'wonky'. My limited experience with Meier's implementation is that it is more subtle, so if any, this would be a preferred method. I'm not planning to purchase a new amp atm, so at best an external x-feed box introduces the need for another set of interconnect cables. Moh money, moh money...

Just asking cuz Pinkie has DIY crossfeed circuit that is based on Meier one. Looks VERY simple. Two links, about same thing pretty much, other having better pics.
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/crossproject2.htm

Foobar Crossfeed plugins are not very good IMHO. Too much detail is lost and some sounds especially ambience related are squeezed to center.

Quote:

Like most everything in this wacky hobby of ours, some folks swear by it and some folks swear at it.

Quote of the month!