[Rockwell75]

Hobbys are ego- and insecurity-driven

Un shun...

The irony is that I suspect this post is way more ego and insecurity driven than this hobby is for the vast majority of folks who post here. This is an exercise in projection.

...re-shun.

 

[tjzurlaaa]

Christmas banger someone please hit me with a better christmas song

 

[drftr]

I think I suggested to you before but think you might have missed it.

Why not go for the Noble Fokus Prestige TWS in custom for? I think it's similar sound signature to the MSE and it's definitely far better than APP2 in terms of SQ.

Looks absolutely stunning too! Can't wait for the day TWS becomes as good as 2k+ IEMs.

Christmas banger someone please hit me with a better christmas song

Slade. And perhaps John & Yoko. It's all slimy stuff but some slimy stuff is better than other slimy stuff.

drftr

 

[tjzurlaaa]

I think I suggested to you before but think you might have missed it.

Why not go for the Noble Fokus Prestige TWS in custom for? I think it's similar sound signature to the MSE and it's definitely far better than APP2 in terms of SQ.

I’m going to check these out. Maybe they will change my mind about TWS if any company can do it maybe it’s noble

 

[peppy]

I did a lot more listening between the iBasso DC-Elite (connected via 6” thunderbolt 4 cable to 2023 iPad) and the Mojo2 Poly via Roon on both.

The DC-Elite is much more neutral to neutral/cool vs the Mojo2 (which now sounds more warm) to my ears. Listening via the CA BlackStar, IE900/600, FAudio Spring, Szalayi. It’s not a slight difference to my ears but significant enough that I had to reset my Mojo2 to make sure I didn’t have any EQ or crossfeed active.

I was a bit irritated initially by the volume adjustment limitations and stepped attenuator clicks on the DC-Elite but with some of the harder to drive IEM’s I tried I was getting plenty of adjustment and am not as bothered by the step clicks now.

Anyway Merry Christmas Everyone here, May your families & loved ones be Blessed by God now and in 2024!!

Which of the two did you prefer when listening to the cfa black star?

Merry Christmas!

 

[Shawnb]

My niece asked me if I was struggling because I can’t afford AirPods… I said, “listen kid, if you only knew the greatness inside these wired ghetto earphones I have”

Someone said that to me once. After a good laugh, I told them this costs more then your car.

 

[Chang]

Now I'm curious if Subtonic Storm can be powered by glowing KT88 Triode Strapped SET amps with zero hum and tube noise given that they're fairly insensitive even compared to many full sized headphones on the market Perhaps it will bring the inner musicality through dreamy sounding SET amps

It really depends on the overall design; more voltage-centric tube designs like OTLs will clip quite quickly with STORM, like the Euforia Evo, for example, but more current-centric designs like the Envy, Cayin HA-300MK2 or WA-33, or hybrids with high current output like the Riviera will do just fine.

Great post that started quite technical and educative, then became an sponsored marketing opportunity and ended up like a poke to other brands.

Like other similar posts on this thread, Watercooler is a place for people to share their experiences not for brands to use it for self promotion. For that we have each brand thread.

I can definitely see how it can be perceived that way, but that was not the intention, and I apologize that it came off that way for you. However, I think the information provided was necessary to provide the relevant context about the current portable audio environment for people to understand why and how we think about the industry and our place in it, and how that informs our overall philosophy and approach. I would think that you are pretty experienced in the audio space to have this perspective, but when we write explanations like these, do give us some leeway as we are addressing both experienced and knowledgeable audiophiles like yourself, but also new or casual audiophiles who might not be familiar with or up to date with regards to the current IEM environment and trends. I don't think that any of our positions are very extreme or controversial in isolation, but if everything is already perfect as is, then there really wouldn't be any reason to push for anything better. The reason why we generalize when we make these observations is a conscious choice made specifically to avoid calling out anyone, as we don't deem that productive. Rather, it is an observation of the areas in which we feel improvements can be made to better the experience for everyone and explain the strides we are taking to make the changes we want to see a reality.

We also agree that this space should primarily be for the community which is why we limit our posting on this thread only to when we are directly addressed. So if anyone has any questions I would encourage you to ask away on our product threads. We’re happy to answer any questions and clarify any doubts, there’s never really need to jump to conclusions when we’re always just a message away.

That's an understatement, in my experience! I tried to buy more expensive cables from him and he steered me to the lesser!

At the end of the day, the end result is what matters to us. We don't see the point of making you pay for something that you aren't going to be happy with or aren't going to use. We have limited enough capacity as it is, and we think it's quite a waste to have the IEM or cable just lying around because it doesn't work for you. That's why we invest the effort we do in providing as much information as possible. And in the case of STORM, taking the time to help our clients dial in their set-ups to optimize for their preferences. Our entire team still takes the time to try out as many new releases as we can in every budget range, so we each have a fairly comprehensive mental catalog of what's out there and can make suggestions based on what has worked for the individual previously. And also steer people away from STORM because we don't think it will suit their use case, as in any context, it is a large investment to make. Personally, I also maintain a list of safe recommendations of IEMs under 700USD. Even though we can't compete in that space with a handmade in Singapore set-up, other companies have business models that can make it work, and there are plenty of great options at every price range now. We are focused on a very specific niche, but great audio has never been so accessible, and now is truly the best time to be into portable audio.

Agree. SP3K sounded great with Mentor (imaging, tonal match, black blackground), I wasn't as a fan of it with Storm. I don't even think it's a hard negative for SP3K either because daps like RS8 / 320 Max are at a different size bracket and Storm is "the" scalable iem.

I would agree with this. SP3000 is by no means a bad player, it is just optimized on the amplification side to swing more voltage for higher impedance loads. It will drive most IEMs beautifully, and drive most high impedance headphones reasonably well, but you wouldn't expect it to drive something more current hungry like a HE-6 or Susvara to its full potential. There is no one-size-fits-all for IEMs, and the same is true for amplification.

Hum, not my cup of tea (Genelec)
TAD CR1 or Revel Salon v1 (the real ones, not the actual v2 ) would be great instead

Always difficult to speak like that, yes. I have a dedicated and treated room at home, equipped with physical speakers. However, the physicality is not comparable with listening to headphones or iems.

It's... different.

About musical feeling iems "speaker like" experienced, these are my Ringo's which are actually the more closest to my sedentary system : tones, timbres and dynamics.

But with iems, talking about "soundstage" for instance, is tricky.

Physically for IEM is not even possible to sound like an openback hp, not to mention speakers. At the start of the journey I've read so much fluffery regards out of head experience with IEM's which never came into real life experience. The closest was LCDi4, but still no match to a decent openback headphone

I think these are all very fair points. However, I would like to clarify that when we refer to STORM as having speaker-like staging, it is a distillation of the concepts surrounding one of the objectives of STORM’s design, which is primarily to image accurately when compared to a conventional two-channel stereo system.

This is a visualization that I quickly cooked up to demonstrate what we mean. It is somewhat crude, but it should suffice:

I think some of the biggest differences between a typical two-channel stereo and IEMs are staging depth, staging shape, and imaging. Depth is the most obvious; speakers being physically separated from you can project a center phantom image in front of you on a stage in a way that no IEM or headphone can currently do.

Another major difference can be observed where two-channel systems in a room with reasonable acoustics will project a rectangular stage. While you can’t ‘hear’ this shape directly, it can be inferred based on the relative positioning of images on the stage. For example, in the illustration above, the three red circles represent the center image and an element hard-panned left and hard-panned right. On a stage projected by a speaker (assuming the panned element has no other spatial information cues, reverb, etc.), the panned elements will typically be heard on the same plane on the depth axis. The same set-up on most IEMs will position the elements more spherically on a headstage. Why this is the case is a can of worms that is probably more appropriately discussed separately (as is whether the center image on a headstage is perceived within the head or outside the head, which I theorize largely depends on whether you spatially reference relative to physical space, i.e., your head, or from the center image, but I feel like someone will bring it up so I will mention it, but again, psychoacoustic can of worms for another time).

But to touch on it briefly, some likely causes for this difference in imaging are likely the lack of acoustic crosstalk in IEMs and the lack of acoustic interaction with the room and outer ear in IEMs due to the occlusive nature of IEMs, just to name a couple. I’ll hereby refer to these spherical staging effects as “occlusion aberrations” for convenience. As seen in the illustration, these occlusion aberrations result in the warping of the soundstage to a more spherical headstage. The hard-panned elements are pulled off-plane depth wise, and this can be perceived as being a bigger and more separated stage as the relative distances between images (as indicated by the orange and purple arrows) are stretched. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and there are many who enjoy IEMs specifically for this effect. It’s similar to focal lengths in photography, where wide-angle lenses can be used to warp perspective, emphasize scale, and create more dramatic visuals. Here are some examples:

https://www.liskeardcameraclub.org.uk/blog/2016/5/27/telephoto-compression




And similarly to audio, while this can be desirable to achieve certain results, there is still equipment like tilt-shift lenses, larger format cameras, and software correction for certain applications like industrial photography where accurate perspective and relative scale are a priority, and hence medium focal lengths that are closest to what our eyes naturally see are prioritized. This accuracy relative to two-channel imaging was one of the priorities for STORM, where accuracy both tonally and spatially was a requirement before we were comfortable labeling it as a reference. Of course, this emulation is not perfect, and there is still some stage curvature in STORM, as illustrated in the diagram, just not as dramatically as is usually the case.

With the change in perspective, it is natural that some people will perceive STORM as narrower relative to other IEMs due to the change in auditory "field-of-view", as illustrated by the green dotted lines in the diagram. This also tracks with imaging relative to speakers, as a speaker will never be able to stage directly to the left and right of your head unless you are sitting directly between the speakers. Thinking about it in this manner also helped me make sense of some anecdotes over the years of meeting audiophiles who started off with and primarily use IEMs and headphones, needing a bit of time and acclimatization to get used to the more centered presentation of two-channel speakers. The congestion mentioned by some may also be a factor of the lack of stretching of distances between images, as mentioned previously (orange and purple lines). I would also like to highlight the differentiation we make between precision and accuracy (more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision). At the flagship tier, imaging precision has gotten pretty good, which is usually what people refer to when they state that an IEM has good imaging. So what is being described here is specifically imaging accuracy with reference to a two-channel speaker setup.

Another occlusion aberration that we wanted to address was the softening of images around the edges of the headstage. In many instances, we have observed that images lose definition and get more diffused as they move further from the center image towards the edges of the stage. This is especially noticeable in the depth domain when compared to speakers. A good pair of speakers project depth with near-infinite and fluid gradation, whereas in contrast, IEMs tend to layer depth in a more discrete fashion, with the first few layers of depth being perceivable but gradations past those first layers tending to be less noticeable and less defined. This is apparent in all axes, just with the contrast between IEMs and speakers being particularly striking with regards to depth. Again, this characteristic is not inherently bad, as it often contributes to an illusion of boundlessness and, as a result, a more open stage. With STORM, accuracy was a primary design objective, so edge definition was prioritized to emulate what is heard in a two-channel setup, at the cost of the better defined edges possibly being perceived as more boxed in for some.

Again, I would like to emphasize that we are not saying that the approach and priorities of STORM are strictly "better," but simply that STORM fills a niche that we feel wasn’t well explored in the IEM realm before and pushes the boundaries in these areas. “Better” is quite meaningless in the absence of context. This definitely isn’t an IEM that will be appropriate for everyone. No IEM is. There are use cases, preferences, and priorities that other IEMs will fulfill better than STORM. This is why we make the effort to reach out to every potential client to make sure that they know what they are getting into and advise them to demo before committing, if possible. We also curate our retail partners to ensure that they are able to convey these nuances to their clients and take the time to guide them within their ability, or direct them to us if more detailed guidance and information is required.

In summary, I think this is the most probable explanation for the discrepancy in impressions of STORM's staging, and why some people perceived it as narrow while other perceive it as massive and speaker-like.

Ok but in my listening experiences, the Genelec products are mainly working instruments.

In particular the active amplified ones.

Monitors.

So they are not my cup of tea, but it's only a personal feeling. And I totally understand what you mean.

I used to be in this camp as well, until I heard a pair of main monitors in a proper studio. I think the improvements in modern class D amplification, drivers, acoustic modeling technologies, and DSP have resulted in big strides in the active monitor space. I think that at the lower end of the 2-way active monitor range is where the stereotype of dead and dry monitors still tends to hold true. But once you get to the 3-ways like a Hedd Type 20 mk2 or a Genelec 8361a, these monitors really start coming alive, and when you get to full-sized main monitors like the JBL M2, Adam S6X, or any of the PMC or Genelec mains, I don’t think many who listen to a well set-up pair of those will be left wanting.

Of course, hifi will always have its place, but good sound is good sound, and I think there are many examples of convergence between hifi and pro audio as you move into the higher-end spaces. Examples that have found success in both hifi and pro audio, like the ATC SCM150 and the JBL 4367, come to mind. Many modern high-end hifi speakers also pretty much measure dead flat, with examples like the Magicos, KEFs, and Revels coming to mind, and similarly, I don’t think many a mastering engineer would say no to having one of these as an additional reference in their studios.

And there will always be a place for something more flavored, like an Avantgrade Trio or Grande Utopia, but I think at that point it’s more a personal preference thing than being outright superior.

Always difficult to speak like that, yes. I have a dedicated and treated room at home, equipped with physical speakers. However, the physicality is not comparable with listening to headphones or iems.

It's... different.

This was actually also something that was considered and accounted for in the design of STORM. This is the reason why there is quite a significant bass shelf in the STORM compared to other IEMs before it that have borne the “reference” moniker. This is what we mean when we say that STORM is perceptually neutral rather than theoretically neutral. Of course, it will still not match the physicality of full-sized speakers, but we attempted to add as much of that perceived physicality back as possible. This is also the reason why we opted for the SLAM woofers over other woofer types, and it gave us the best balance of characteristics in terms of speed, physicality, tactility, and dynamics to have that "room-filling" feel, just on a headstage rather than in a room.


Separately, I think there were also some other questions with regards to margins both for cables and IEMs, we will probably do a full blog post on cable economics and IEM economics separately and how cost is structured for an IEM like STORM in the future. The topic is quite complex, and context really matters. For cables especially, looking at margins from the direct cost of raw inputs (variable cost) vs MSRP perspective, which is the thing most people get peeved about, is very different compared to average cost (TC/Q) vs MSRP. And then whether you consider R&D part of fixed cost or not which would work if you isolate each project but if you’re constantly working on development like we are then it’s another mess as how to quantify that and price that in. But yeah, we’ve discussed how we’re structured to several clients who also happen to be successful business owners, @HiFiHawaii808 as an example, and basically all of them told us a variation of “You guys are nuts, it’s not going to work, but good luck”, so make of that what you will

 

[OneEyedHito]

Which of the two did you prefer when listening to the cfa black star?

Merry Christmas!

Mojo2, they (CA-BS) need a bit more warmth and bass weight to my ears, they lean cooler in tone to me & Mojo2 makes them more my flavor.

On the single DD IEM’s listened to I’d prefer the DC-Elite most days with the caveat of everyday on the IE600 due to it warmer signature to start. While the FAudio Spring could probably go both ways due to the beryllium DD. That is the standout DD IEM for me price wise for 2023.

 

[Chang]

Epic as always. I love that BH cable. I wonder if they make them in MMCX.

We can do pretty much any termination since all cables are built to order, headphone terminations as well!

all you fault, @Chang

The 622b is quite special as a smooth mids specialist. Graphs almost identically to STORM but sounds totally different, another example of graphs not telling the whole story. Felix from Symphonium loved the vocals so much he bought one on the spot at CJ London We met the founders and lead engineer in London, cool folks who definitely know what they’re doing. Now they just need to get their website and marketing materials up haha

Ah, okay...

@Chang has been responsible for a lot of financial damage to the community in just one single year! Easily one of the most pleasant meetings I had this year though and I'm already looking forward to a Storm family member that aims for more sumptuous mids and more organic bass

drftr

Haha, just doing my part to support the industry It was great meeting you too! I know you were quite skeptical at first, but I really appreciate you giving us a chance and taking the time to give our creations a try. Hope to see you again at one of the shows next year!

Question: What's the first IEM you expect to buy in 2024?

I have personally been on the hunt for a warm flagship to complement the STORM, currently mulling over the Canpur 622b, VEX, and FitEar DC Ti. Too many good choices


Great seeing that Dita is getting some much-deserved attention. I’ll leave the sound impressions to others, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned the Project M case yet, simple but clean aesthetic:

And it’s STACKABLE: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzvTTabvsU7/?hl=en
Super cool, and also, please check out their Navigator dongle, probably my favorite dongle release of the year. Nothing super fancy specs or measurements wise, but it had tons of drive, really organic and fluid tone, and really big and convincing presentation. Excellent build quality as well, and it has a built-in phone stand, which is neat, albeit a bit on the heavy and big side for a dongle, but built like a tank. Bonus points for driving STORM beautifully Don’t let this one fly under your radar.
(Full disclosure: We are not associated with Dita in any way and have no business relations, in case anyone was wondering, I just really like the Navigator and think the Project M case is slick)

Also, for those who like to tinker, I was messing around recently, and apparently the cores of the Earrbond EBT Metal tips fit into the latest generation of SpinFits. The core in the small sized tip is shorter than the core of the Asian fit tip (their equivalent of M). The small core fits in the Omnis, and the Asian fit cores fits in the W1. The cores can be pushed out of the tips with a 4.4mm jack as there is no adhesive. I’d suggest using a cheaper cable/jack/adapter if you’re concerned about scratches.

The cores sit right under the spinny bit of the SpinFits, so they aren’t stiff all the way through to the tip like Coriers, so even though I was one of the fortunate ones that didn’t have issues with the fit on Corier, I find these more comfortable. The fit is true to size of the SpinFit. Pics of how the core sits relative to Corier:

The Earrbond cores are also asymmetrical, so this is the alignment I’ve found to work best:

If you have trouble mounting the SpinFits onto your IEM with the cores in, you can push the cores out (again with any 4.4mm jack) and mount the tips first before sliding the cores in, then gently pinch the top of the top to ensure that the cores are fully seated in.

Some caveats; I have not stress-tested this, the cores mount quite firmly and don’t dislodge in my ears, but I can’t guarantee that to be the case universally. Also, the Earrbonds have two core materials: stainless steel and gold-plated oxygen-free copper. The stainless steel sounds more similar to the tone of Corier, and the GPOFC has a warmer, jazzier tone to it. Presentation is a bit different, so I wouldn’t say they’re a replacement for Corier, just a different and slightly more comfortable alternative for me personally. The GPOFC does also oxidize like Corier, so that’s also something to keep in mind, especially since these frankenstein tips are considerably more expensive than the Coriers. Wanted to share as I think quite a lot of people enjoyed the sound of metal core tips but couldn’t get a good fit or had discomfort with the Coriers.

And lastly, what a year it’s been, I’d like to say a big thank you to everyone on behalf of our entire team. We didn’t think we would get this far but the support and openness everyone has shown has been incredible. Hope to see everyone again next year, really looking forward to it, happy holidays!

 

[OneEyedHito]

@Chang closing out 2024 in style with very rare transparency, beautiful manners, and incredible suggestions. Thanks for these two posts above. Much appreciated.

 

[maegnificant]

For anyone looking for something different and in my opinion very good sounding, the Denon Perl Pro are a great compromise on the go, sonically, compared to APP2.

Yeah I tried those at "Canjam Europe" and with the personalised profile they sounded pretty good. Not amazing, but good. Weird fit though.

 

[btwine]

Alright everyone what better way to celebrate Christmas than to kickoff the Watercooler 2023 IEM of the Year Poll

Thanks @Rockwell75 for all the surveys lately. Continual Cooler pulse checks! I would have selected Erebus as my #2 TOTL choice but sadly it is nowhere to be found. More people need to hear it I imagine for it to be poll worthy. It is an mvp in my lineup right now.

Merry Xmas and happy holidays, Coolers of all persuasions!

 

[maegnificant]

Alright everyone what better way to celebrate Christmas than to kickoff the Watercooler 2023 IEM of the Year Poll

I'm trying a new design for this particular poll, we'll see how it goes. There will be a higher end and a lower end bracket. Folks will choose 3 IEMs from a selection of IEMs that have appeared on the scene starting with CanJam SoCal 2022, and that have done well in our polls or otherwise captured folks' attention. (I may have been a little looser with this for the mid-fi bracket.)

Of the 3 selections each person's first choice will be awarded 5 points, second choice 3 points and third choice 1 point. You may not vote for the same IEM more than once and if you do I'll take the points from the highest value question and ignore the rest.

The poll will be open for a week and I'll close it down at or close to midnight Dec 31, eastern standard time.

Here is the poll.

Have fun.

I have not heard any of the mid-fi choices and only two of the elite bracket, so I cannot participate this time. Maybe next time!

*edit* Also Timsok Ts-316 needs a spot, if the quattro can be there!

 

[Rockwell75]

Thanks @Rockwell75 for all the surveys lately. Continual Cooler pulse checks! I would have selected Erebus as my #2 TOTL choice but sadly it is nowhere to be found. More people need to hear it I imagine for it to be poll worthy. It is an mvp in my lineup right now.

Merry Xmas and happy holidays, Coolers of all persuasions!

Yeah I had to draw the line somewhere lest the survey get too loaded. I limited it to IEMs that hit the scene between CanJam Socal 22 and 23 and which did reasonably well (at least 5 votes) on one of our surveys. Unfortunately the Erebus didn't meet this criteria but if it picks up steam it will certainly be eligible in the future.

 

[SCYJ]

I’m going to check these out. Maybe they will change my mind about TWS if any company can do it maybe it’s noble

Yeah, I have tried both the Mystiques and the Prestige. I bought the Mystiques because it was much discounted and a better value proposition (and I EQ it anyways since it's just TWS). But great soundstage and SQ for a TWS. Prestige is definitely an upgrade (refined cleaner bass with better mids) but the price was too much for me back then.


Looking to upgrade to the Prestige myself (likely in custom form) in the future, but the Noble TWS software is just what's holding it back from being truly great.