[Leto Dal]

Thats not quite true. High end dacs can sound very different and make more difference than an amp. Something like May will sound very different to Wandla or Dave. Yet alone summit fi stuff like higher end lapizators or something like wavedream signature balanced.

The headphone will make the biggest difference though.

Interconnects and power play a huge role too. Unfortunately desktop systems tend to be a much larger time and money sink than mobile.

The celling is much higher too. With IEMs its possible to reach the "endgame" around 15k (and there still will be much much cheaper dap / iem pairings that arguably sound better to you) with desktop rigs 15k is just the beginning with many objectivly much better sounding systems that are always on the horizon.

 

[shabta]

Thats not quite true. High end dacs can sound very different and make more difference than an amp. Something like May will sound very different to Wandla or Dave. Yet alone summit fi stuff like higher end lapizators or something like wavedream signature balanced.

The headphone will make the biggest difference though.

Interconnects and power play a huge role too. Unfortunately desktop systems tend to be a much larger time and money sink than mobile.

The celling is much higher too. With IEMs its possible to reach the "endgame" around 15k (and there still will be much much cheaper dap / iem pairings that arguably sound better to you) with desktop rigs 15k is just the beginning with many objectivly much better sounding systems that are always on the horizon.

I think the whole point is not to say who is right nor who is wrong, but to say what we've learned. I celebrate your experience as compleetly valid for you

My friend is an early investor in DCS. I have heard quite a number of high end dacs for extended demos with my gear. I am pretty sure I have spent more time with high end DACs than most people on headfi, even many water coolers. What you say is true for you. But not for me. 20 years ago the differences between DACs was huge. Now, I do hear differences, but mostly beyond a certain level, it's too subtle for me to care that much.

The susvara is way more sensitive to changes in the chain than any other headphone except maybe an SR007 (in my experience). Yet I never found switching DACs made anywhere near as important a difference as changing amps. That's just me. I am not saying other people are wrong who have a different view.

Endgame setups don't interest me that much after I have a decent DAC, a great transducer and a complemenatary amp. I hear differences they just don't matter enough past a certain point for me. I don't see what there is in that statement to start a reply with "that's not quite true."

 

[Leto Dal]

My friend is an early investor in DCS. I have heard quite a number of high end dacs for extended demos with my gear. I am pretty sure I have spent more time with high end DACs than most people on headfi, even many water collers. What you say is true for you. But not for me. 20 years ago the differences between DACs was huge. Now, I do hear differences, but mostly beyond a certain level, it's too subtle for me to care that much.

Most delta sigma sound very similar indeed. But give some R2R and delta sigma / lamp dac a good listen. The differences between something like a Dave and R2R May are glaring. Dave has more punch, speed an energy, electronic music will just sound very different, May onother is more laid back lush analogisch and deep in its stage presentation, you can feel the analog instruments, its very real and not a sensation a dave will give you. Recently we compared Wandla with May in a lengthy A/B test, and "even" a Verite Open sounded like a different headphone on both.

Talking of headphones, it could be the transducer too, something like Susvara or a RAAL will pick down the differences much better than lets a say a Caldera, still I think anyone with good hearing and somewhat trained ear will be able to pick up significant differences in dacs with different topologies immidiatly.

I mean we are buying different daps for this very reason too, the dac units in something like a DX320 Max and a L&P r2r daps sound very very different.

And yeah man I certainly dont want to suggest to buy new gear, dac rabbit hole is deep af as you probably know. If you are happy with what you have - you are a happy man in this hobby.

 

[mikaik]

The headphone will make the biggest difference though.

That's what I think too, but if only things would be simple...

I was playing around with some cheap IEMs, the Artti R1, a 3DD configuration, if I'm not mistaken. Connected them to a couple of sources, varying from cheaper dongles (Fiio KA13) to small DAPs (Sony's A306) to an expensive DAP (AK SP2000T) coupled to a Brise Tsuranagi. I've used a FiiO cable for all sources. They scale up nicely with a marked boost when connected to an amplified source, like the iFi Gryphon/Mojo2, but then moving to AK+Brise Tsuranagi, I couldn't hear any further improvement. Not saying there wasn't any, but these ears couldn't hear it. I thought being a 3DD they could use the extra power.
Doing the same with the Oriolus OG, they sound good on the KA13, same on the A306, better on the Gryphon and stunning on the AK+Tsuranagi. Funny enough, power does not seem to be the common denominator here, they sounded better to me on the W4 than Gryph (despite the latter having double the power).
What I'm trying to say is, headphones make the biggest difference in most cases and up to a point. Then it becomes a chasing game, better source, better IEMs/Headphones, back to better source and so on. This is the part I enjoy the most

 

[shabta]

Most delta sigma sound very similar indeed. But give some R2R and delta sigma / lamp dac a good listen. The difference between something like a Dave and R2R May are glaring. Dave has more punch, speed an energy, electronic music will just sound very different, May onother is more laid back lush analogisch and deep in its stage presentation, you can feel the analog instruments, its very real and not a sensation a dave will give you. Recently we compared Wandla with May in a lengthy A/B test, and "even" a Verite Open sounded like a different headphone on both.

Talking of headphones, it could be the transducer too, something like Susvara or a RAAL will pick down the differences much better than lets a say a Caldera, still I think anyone with good hearing and somewhat trained ear will be able to pick up significant differences in dacs with different topologies immidiatly.

I mean we are buying different daps for this very reason too, the dac units in something like a DX320 Max and a L&P r2r daps sound very very different.

And yeah man I certainly dont want to suggest to buy new gear, dac rabbit hole is deep af as you probably know. If you are happy with what you have - you are a happy man in this hobby.

You do realize that DCS doesn't make a delta sigma dac? Not only that they do listen to the competition. So do I. I only have r2r dacs in my stationary systems. I stand by what I said. You find it unbelievable, perhaps I am just really deaf.

 

[Leto Dal]

You do realize that DCS doesn't make a delta sigma dac? Not only that they do listen to the competition. So do I. I only have r2r dacs in my stationary systems. I stand by what I said. You find it unbelievable, perhaps I am just really deaf.

yeah was talking about a/b of r2r vs delta sigma vs lamp dacs. I am not trying to convince you that your hearing is „wrong“, we all hear differently, just hinting at what you might want to try, before staying adamant on this topic.

 

[aaf evo]

Rock, I want to let you know I have given this topic of Credo allot of thought since your post. And Todd’s post ( @RTodd ) greatly affected my thoughts. Especially as we should take into consideration other people’s feelings about a particular product. So, without further ado, here is my current Credo:

1.- Whatever Jeff, Jim and Bobby like sucks!
(@Rockwell75 @HiFiHawaii808 @aaf evo). I almost added @bigbeans, but I like his Sony DMP-Z1.

2.- And this is something I have given allot of thought to in these last few days.
The Storm Sucks! This is especially true of Bobby’s Storm!

And remember, please be conscious of all of our dear friend’s feelings.

I wish everyone a nice day.

This is just for you. <3

 

[maegnificant]

The new WILLOW album is going to be insane.

 

[mashuto]

Sunday survey-- what is your hobby "Credo"? Which is to say, what are some of the guiding principles or notions you have arrived at or which help inform your journey through the audio landscape.

Not specific only to audio as a hobby, but it pretty much boils down to this: Do what you like and stop worrying about what others think.

 

[Scubadevils]

New-DAP-day

 

[thaslaya]

Bandcamp is the best!

 

[Rockwell75]

Thank-you to everyone for all the thoughtful responses to the Credo question. Lots of great wisdom and advice here.

I want to spread joy not stress.

Love this.

My signature: "Your ears are the best measuring rig for gauging personal enjoyment...so if it sounds good, then it is good."

Nice...I probably read this before and subconsciously internalized it.

Now, having said that, I should also note that I have the luxury of not caring. Because I enjoy the privilege of access, it's much easier for me to get an audition - whether it be from meets, CanJams, reviews, tours, etc. - than it is for most members. The result of that privilege is never having to blind-buy anything. For those without that access, yes, I can totally understand how measurements take on more meaning.

That was me at one point. Living as I do in a comparative IEM wasteland my early days were filled with many unfortunate blind buys. I tried using measurements but didn't find them consistently helpful as it turns out my own tastes vary over a vast range of different FR presentations and beyond a point, as @goldwerger aptly noted, reading graphs is pretty much like reading tea leaves. Listening first is and always will be the only way to get a proper sense of something-- one must taste the fruit to know the flavor. So for me I wound up starting a tour program, networking with folks and traveling to CanJams.

Classifieds sale from reliable members of this forum is a good way to get awesome deals

Indeed. If one can avoid the urge to buy something hot right as it comes out it's pretty easy to go through the used market judiciously and not lose all that much $$, if any.

2) Hearing is very individual, like a fingerprint.

Love this. I had something similar in mind when I mentioned my belief that one can not meaningfully divorce the act of perception, the perceiver and the object of perception from each other.

Excuse me, we use music to listen to gears.

People love to stroke their chins and say "hey man, music first", which is true to a point...but gear matters to us. If it did not we'd all be happy with little AM radios.

Rock, I want to let you know I have given this topic of Credo allot of thought since your post. And Todd’s post ( @RTodd ) greatly affected my thoughts. Especially as we should take into consideration other people’s feelings about a particular product. So, without further ado, here is my current Credo:

1.- Whatever Jeff, Jim and Bobby like sucks!
(@Rockwell75 @HiFiHawaii808 @aaf evo). I almost added @bigbeans, but I like his Sony DMP-Z1.

2.- And this is something I have given allot of thought to in these last few days.
The Storm Sucks! This is especially true of Bobby’s Storm!

And remember, please be conscious of all of our dear friend’s feelings.

I wish everyone a nice day.

LMAO Incidentally I came to the realization recently that the Traillii sucks most of all

Ethos since I started the hobby:

I also feel that the entire spirit behind reducing the joy of listening to a wonderful IEM to a parametric equation is "philistinish" and at the same time, an outcome of the commentator's access to IEMs through ownership or lack thereof. I think the hobby absolutely needs to have the element of surprise, the element of mystique, and the element of "wonder". Socrates has wonderful thoughts on the importance of "wonder" and keeping this alive.

Love this.

So many great points here that anyone new to the hobby would do well to consider when working out their own journey. I’ve been following this thread from the very beginning, and your writings on these points over the years has been a huge help for me to focus in on what matters most to me.

Thank-you for the kind words!

5. Took me a while to realise it, but this is ultimately a gear hobby. You can just as easily love and enjoy music without the gear, but then you're not in the hobby. And while the general idea is that we're in the hobby to find the best possible way to listen to the music we love, the pursuit is ultimately about the gear itself.

Valid.

 

[Luke-]

Bit of a dilemma do I upgrade my Dap from HiBy R6 pro ii to R8ii ? or my iems supermoon ? I only want to own one set of iems was thinking of singularity?

 

[drftr]

All my previous credos in life have ended up under the table at some point for the sole reason that life exists: Change and evolution.

So while my one credo right now might be "As long as I only have 1 pair of ears I only need 1 pair of IEMs" who knows what happens next and I buy 10 instead?

drftr

 

[Frankie D]

This is just for you. <3

I was just trying to add some levity, and was in no way serious. My apologies to you @Rockwell75 and @HiFiHawaii808 if my post was not taken in that manner.