[Rockwell75]

Man that's so good... Must have taken someone A LOT of time.

Honestly I don't think I've ever come across a more concentrated deposit of useful information layed out in a brilliant non-cluttered way. I was speechless for about 5 minutes after finding it.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

The main problem I can see with the cable debate is that telling someone you can hear something they can't is tantamount to saying your hearing is better than theirs.
I'm not saying that that is the intention, but it's implied. This can be threatening. To say you cannot hear a difference would then require some "objective" backing to negate the sense of deficiency and therefore be able to point out that the other person is deluded because of "science" reasons..

I know this feeling really well being a colour blind person. My kids make fun of me all the time... It's a detriment at work, it has kept me out of career choices... But interestingly enough, there is science that suggests some benefits. For instance, camouflage is often less effective on a colour blind person. Also some versions of colourblindness makes one more sensitive to variations of certain colours, even better than non-colourblind people.
There must be a reason why evolution didn't select it out of existence. I see colour, just not the same way most other people see it.

My point is, is that this is a heated debate not because of science but because of feelings. If someone could actually "put their finger" on the differences, and maybe somehow divorce the effect from the moods and such as described in earlier posts, then maybe some machine could be developed to measure it.. but how do you measure the change in the soundstage, or that slightly more metallic ring on a cymbal, or the voice that sounds like it's in the room vs on a recording..
What does one even listen to? For years I never heard lyrics as poetry or narrative, just as tonal gradations. I go back to songs from my youth and hear the "story" and realize how much I missed.
It's way too complicated for the binary of "difference" and "no difference"..

That's not my problem at all. If someone has better hearing than me, that doesn't bother me. What really bothers me is that I have come to this hobby believing that I need to hear products,, compare them and decide which one is best for me based on what I hear. But, I have since learned that my brain can convince me that I am hearing things that actually aren't there. So, I need to treat everything I hear skeptically and test and retest to find repeatable experiences and it is only those repeatable impressions that I trust.

I came to this hobby as a cable skeptic. Then, I heard some cables that I thought for sure made a difference to sound. So sure, I would bet my house on it. Now, I am not so sure anymore and I am once again a cable skeptic because the science I see does not support the conclusions about what I hear. So, now, I set a budget for cables and I try to stay within that budget and I pick cables mostly for how they look like window treatments in a house. My understanding of the science is that the resistance of the cable relative to the monitor determines how much impact it can have to sound. If you have a high impedance headphone and a decently constructed cable, the science suggests that anything you hear between cheap and expensive cables may be delusional. I am okay with delusion as long as I can hear it consistently.

 

[Rockwell75]

I am okay with delusion as long as I can hear it consistently.

Consistency can be a tough one to pin down. Every IEM I've loved enough to buy has sounded like sh1t to me on some occasions.

 

[ranfan]

Interesting thread, and a lot of good points posted. I think regarding the cable, I'm not so sure how cable can significantly affect sound, however it can certainly affect the 'feel' and consequently the quality of the listening experience by the user. I used to believe cable can change sound in a way that is clearly perceptible. But the more I spend time altering between one (copper/silver, cheap/expensive, or what have you) model to another, the less convinced I am to any change I was hearing to be attributed to the cable. It is so slight, and in science it can be alikened to be within the margin of error (insertion depth, skin condition, expectation bias, mood, etc.) . And so I concluded that at least to my ears cables don't significantly affect sonic qualities, however it may affect our subjective perception/impression of the sound due to many other unaccounted factors.

But our listening experience is by definition subjective, and therefore can be irrational sometimes. The number of times you've listen to a song even plays a role in influencing our enjoyment. The first time you listen to a song, and the 100th would certainly feel different, and be perceived as such to our brain as well. And it's interesting to observe the neurological connection here, because this is in my opinion where the proverbial rubber hits the road, or at least as far as we know (who knows, there may be other elements in play to our perception, human experience is a very weird thing).

I think that if someone can hear the difference between cables, and perceived that difference as being significant in increasing/reducing the quality of their listening experience, then that's OK. I think it would even add some more richness and fun to this hobby. Let there be more option, freedom and colors to choose from, and let the market flourish with innovation, and products of human creativity/ingenuity. I think there are many 'best', and they differ to each individual, their preferences and qualia. My point is, not everyone hears the same. And in the face of something more complex such as our perception, it's not always easy to point what causes what.

 

[ranfan]

I remember reading an interpretation of the Book of Genesis once where the statement "In the beginning was the word" was interpreted in the following way. "Word" is taken as ultimately referring to vibration. Vibrations produce sound and this all encompassing first vibration has been given many names, the most famous of which is the Sanskrit term Aum. What this is taken to imply is that of our 5 senses sound is the most sacred, the most resonant to us spiritually and the most uniquely qualified to touch us to the core of our being. I have seen, touched, tasted and smelled many wonderful things-- but not one of those 4 senses comes anywhere near giving me the same all embracing spiritual satisfaction that is had when I connect most deeply to my favorite music. I think, in addition to everything else that has been said, that many of the strong emotions generated in this and other similar discussions, stems from the deep emotional connections many of us feel to the music we listen to and further that in many ways the quest for better gear is, at least tangentially, spiritual in nature. If for some people a cable upgrade is what it will take to push them over the line into nirvana...then I could see any material cost being worth it even if it's not something I can totally relate to.

I wonder what listening to music at night before going to sleep does to a person? And moreover, how listening every night for some lengthy period would affect them physiologically. I think our breathing and rhythm of heartbeat can get affected by music. That is the rhythm part of music. What about the melody part? I know for one I could learn a language faster by listening to songs sung in that. Words are basically made out of sound, and more specifically vibration. And the string of words, how they're connected into sentences has some melodic quality to them. Like intonation, accent, pronounciation. You could even catch someone's intent by hearing them, without knowing the words' meaning. It's really weird, and human.

From the first paragraph of Inayat Khan’s “The Mysticism of Sound and Music”



Though we sometimes strive for the reassurance of the “visual” in focussing on better soundstage and the technicals, when we are really transported, it is music alone.

I think sound and smell/taste are like that. And who knows, there may be more out there we couldn't identify with our senses. Like how birds could sense earth's magnetic field, or how salmons could smell their way back to their birthplace.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Consistency can be a tough one to pin down. Every IEM I've loved enough to buy has sounded like sh1t to me on some occasions.

I agree. My subjective preferences can change on an hourly basis. That's micro preferences. Macro preferences like target FR curve remains fairly consistent. What I've really learned is that what you hear now is significantly influenced by what you listened to immediately before it. I need to hear a bunch of products and then wait until the next day and try them out in the morning to confirm what I heard. I have to trust my taste over my analytical brain because A/B testing is analytical. But, when I listen to music, I know when I really like something. So, often times, I just pick what I feel I want to hear most and listen to it and then try to analyze why I made that choice. I can't really judge a product in less than a week of usage with it as my opinion will evolve over time as I test it with different types of music, sources and use cases

 

[Rockwell75]

I wonder what listening to music at night before going to sleep does to a person? And moreover, how listening every night for some lengthy period would affect them physiologically. I think our breathing and rhythm of heartbeat can get affected by music. That is the rhythm part of music. What about the melody part?

I think it would depend on the type of music. I can imagine different selections from my library resulting in either beautiful dreams (Rutter's Requiem, for example) or nightmares (Slayer's Reign in Blood).

Personally I think the nature and type of media someone consumes has an impact on one one's overall health & being that is at least as profound as that of the food one consumes. The spiritual teachings I subscribe to describe everything in terms of vibration and on this metric everything we consume can be judged according to the vibrational impact it has on our minds & consciousness. Either way this is something that is nowhere near fully understood and (imho) cannot be properly understood until there's a wholesale paradigm shift within our scientific institutions. For an example of such a paradigm shift see the book Science Set Free by Rupert Sheldrake or alternately check out his Ted Talk:

 

[Mehran]

Personally I think the nature and type of media someone consumes has an impact on one one's overall health & being that is at least as profound as that of the food one consumes.

I have experienced this first hand recently. I've felt a great shift in energy listening to Bach and Mozart almost exclusively these past few days, and all thanks to the Elysium and how beautifully renders classical music.

 

[Mehran]

Interesting thread, and a lot of good points posted. I think regarding the cable, I'm not so sure how cable can significantly affect sound, however it can certainly affect the 'feel' and consequently the quality of the listening experience by the user. I used to believe cable can change sound in a way that is clearly perceptible. But the more I spend time altering between one (copper/silver, cheap/expensive, or what have you) model to another, the less convinced I am to any change I was hearing to be attributed to the cable. It is so slight, and in science it can be alikened to be within the margin of error (insertion depth, skin condition, expectation bias, mood, etc.) . And so I concluded that at least to my ears cables don't significantly affect sonic qualities, however it may affect our subjective perception/impression of the sound due to many other unaccounted factors.

But our listening experience is by definition subjective, and therefore can be irrational sometimes. The number of times you've listen to a song even plays a role in influencing our enjoyment. The first time you listen to a song, and the 100th would certainly feel different, and be perceived as such to our brain as well. And it's interesting to observe the neurological connection here, because this is in my opinion where the proverbial rubber hits the road, or at least as far as we know (who knows, there may be other elements in play to our perception, human experience is a very weird thing).

I think that if someone can hear the difference between cables, and perceived that difference as being significant in increasing/reducing the quality of their listening experience, then that's OK. I think it would even add some more richness and fun to this hobby. Let there be more option, freedom and colors to choose from, and let the market flourish with innovation, and products of human creativity/ingenuity. I think there are many 'best', and they differ to each individual, their preferences and qualia. My point is, not everyone hears the same. And in the face of something more complex such as our perception, it's not always easy to point what causes what.

One important factor that causes so much confusion, and all this varying experiences from person to person and even with s single listener is that a lot of us think we listen . But true listening is an art is lost to many adults. We think we are listening , but for most of us there's always a stream of thought going on in our minds that rarely stops and we aren't even conscious of it because we think we are that voice. It interferes with everything and is very limited to a bunch of secondhand and unoriginal ideas gathered unconsciously in time. We are one with it. We think we are using our mind but many on occasions we are just a tool in its hands without knowing it.
There are ways to get out of it and transcend but that's a discussion for another time and place.

 

[ranfan]

External and internal noise have some influence too I guess. The state of mind the listener is in. And the testing environment. Whether or not that particular experiment can be replicated yielding the same result within acceptable margin of error multiple times, determines scientific truth. And when something is so subtle hard to measure (using tools, or our hearing), it's not easy to say that that is definitely true.

 

[DanielListening]

When I am in a foul mood music sounds so piercing and uncomfortable.

 

[Rockwell75]

But true listening is an art is lost to many adults. We think we are listening , but for most of us there's always a stream of thought going on in our minds that rarely stops and we aren't even conscious of

This is so true. My favorite gear, whatever else can be said about it, is that which can effortlessly pull me in and make me forget the outside world while I remain in some variation of a state of blissful unity with my music. Everything else that can be said of an IEM is but a footnote if it can have this effect on me. VE, Sony, Campfire, Empire-- all these companies seem to have a knack for pulling this off, at least relative to my own tastes. I have a feeling Oriolus may belong on this list as well and hopefully I'll be able to find out before too long

When I am in a foul mood music sounds so piercing and uncomfortable.

I remember an interview with someone-- Paul McCartney I think-- who when asked what the best stereo system he'd ever heard was his answer was "whatever's playing at the time". The implication is that he could derive just as much enjoyment hearing his favorite song through a totl source as through a cheap AM radio. I've always thought about this in the context of one's mental state going in to listening sessions-- does it mean that I'm only an attitude adjustment way from a cheap pair of airline buds sounding like an Andromeda?

 

[SBranson]

I remember an interview with someone-- Paul McCartney I think-- who when asked what the best stereo system he'd ever heard was his answer was "whatever's playing at the time". The implication is that he could derive just as much enjoyment hearing his favorite song through a totl source as through a cheap AM radio. I've always thought about this in the context of one's mental state going in to listening sessions-- does it mean that I'm only an attitude adjustment way from a cheap pair of airline buds sounding like an Andromeda?

I was just thinking about this today... sometimes the best gear becomes about the gear.. It's that "sounds" vs "music" idea. When I hear all the little details I am in awe of the tone of an instrument and the masterful playing.. This is the realm of the performer and the artisan of the instruments and amazing gear gets me as close to the recording moment.. but then I'm reminded of a story in a book I read about Rubinstein or Horowitz studying a score on a flight then playing it in performance that evening.
The music is inside.. Sometimes hearing the idea is as beautiful as the instrumentation..
In some ways, I think this approach to super high fidelity is because of a visual bias and for me, I am trying to "see" the performance in that imaginary hall in my head.
Some of my most memorable music moments were in the car as a kid and the AM radio station would play my favourite song. It was rare that anyone had the record so hearing a song was at the whim of chance a lot of the time so it became special...

... I have a feeling Oriolus may belong on this list as well and hopefully I'll be able to find out before too long

And then my pendulum swings to the other end and I am a willing victim to my "pusher" @Rockwell75.. Why did you have to mention this? That my daughter's name is Isabel makes this new Oriolus seem fated.. Or at least that's how I justify my inevitable purchase. ha ha..

 

[DanielListening]

Haha.

In my childhood home I moved from the upstairs to the downstairs that my father finished 5 years or so after we moved in to the new house.

I saved all my money for a couple years to buy a Sony stereo/integrated CD player & speakers. I was so proud of it.

Unfortunately it soon turned into a curse since to not disturb my parents I had to play it so quiet.

I remember one time my mother lost her earring in the master bedroom that was above mine. My father was banging on the ground trying to get it to bounce so they would find the earring.

I remember coming up, tears in my eyes saying “I can’t turn it down any lower.”

Hahaha. I think that’s why I love headphones and IEMs so much. Too much trauma from playing speakers.

I still usually get anxious listening to speakers.

When I got my first Sony Walkman that was freedom. I could listen at the volume I enjoyed.

RIP Sony MHC-RG70AV

 

[Rockwell75]

I'm not so sure how cable can significantly affect sound, however it can certainly affect the 'feel' and consequently the quality of the listening experience by the user. I

I've had this rolling around in my head since you said it...it's an interesting and I think fruitful way to look at it. I'll probably come back to this idea later.

It was rare that anyone had the record so hearing a song was at the whim of chance a lot of the time so it became special...

I've always loved Queen's "Radio Ga Ga" as an homage to precisely this aspect of listening to the radio. This is a poignant observation and something I've thought about lots in the broader sense of how much the internet age (among other things) has facilitated this instant satisfaction mentality in society as a whole

And then my pendulum swings to the other end and I am a willing victim to my "pusher" @Rockwell75.. Why did you have to mention this? That my daughter's name is Isabel makes this new Oriolus seem fated.. Or at least that's how I justify my inevitable purchase. ha ha..

Lol...I just need to purchase the C9 to complete the circle

Haha.

In my childhood home I moved from the upstairs to the downstairs that my father finished 5 years or so after we moved in to the new house.

I saved all my money for a couple years to buy a Sony stereo/integrated CD player & speakers. I was so proud of it.

Unfortunately it soon turned into a curse since to not disturb my parents I had to play it so quiet.

I remember one time my mother lost her earring in the master bedroom that was above mine. My father was banging on the ground trying to get it to bounce so they would find the earring.

I remember coming up, tears in my eyes saying “I can’t turn it down any lower.”

Hahaha. I think that’s why I love headphones and IEMs so much. Too much trauma from playing speakers.

I still usually get anxious listening to speakers.

When I got my first Sony Walkman that was freedom. I could listen at the volume I enjoyed.

RIP Sony MHC-RG70AV

Loved this thanks for sharing...I always enjoy reading about people's individual path to and approach within this hobby.