[tjw321]

  Hey, go easy with the "code monkeys", we  they are people too and have feelings (well, some do), just 'cos we they work for peanuts is no reason to disrespect them.

 

With respect to all the code monkeys:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lLRBiEBRAc

 

[steelglam]

  <subjective opinion>
So...I finally got time to try the 3.0 firmware, replacing it from 2.14b. I'm listening to 24/96 and 24/192 FLAC from HDTracks, using V-Moda Crossfade M-100s. I hear what people are saying about what they perceive as improvements in the SQ, but I beg to differ. I think I know why. Sure, there seems to be increased detail, stereo separation, soundfield, whatever...but it feels to me like this is all being achieved by the same process as a "widen stereo" channel processing that you can do in any decent audio software. What that basically does is some subtraction of L-R and R-L to each channel, and it results in partial phase cancellation, and significant reduction in your "phantom center". Normally, vocals are centered, and vocals tend to be around the middle of the frequency spectrum, so at first, I thought what I was hearing was a bit of a "classic V" EQ coloring the sound, so I started playing with treble and bass settings. Nothing helped, and that was when I figured out what was going on. I know that not everybody loves Rick Ocasek's voice, but I'd still like to be able to hear it properly in the mix, along with everything else that's supposed to be in the center of the mix...so I dropped back to 2.14b, and I'll be staying there.
</subjective opinion>

I do not have the know-how to completely understand what you are saying is happening from a technical perspective, nor do I have the technical capability to measure it as you do, but I can tell you without a doubt that I am hearing the same thing that you are on 3.0 compared to 2.14b.  Everything seems to be pulled/panned hard right and left on 3.0.  Which seems to give the impression of improved stability of imaging that a lot of folks are noting on 3.0.  But it results in a loss of midrange information, and a loss of centered-ness to the sound.  Which sounds completely unnatural to my ears.

 

[jimmers]

  With respect to all the code monkeys:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lLRBiEBRAc

They missed out on the no.1 essential, the use of headphones .

 

[marty63]

Hi, i have a question.
During playback SACD files (DSF, DFF)  the  format  2822,4 KHz/1bit  is converted to PCM?  Wolfson DAC  IMHO not have the ability playback "real SACD format".

 

[umdesch4]

  I've been encouraging you because I'm too slack to do it myself

.
I won't list the projects that are waiting for me to get to them (and yet I start more

) so I'm happy with my X3 'cos it's a finished product (except for more possible FW ups) and works to my satisfaction

Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with this. I'll see if I can do this test properly, just to satisfy my curiosity, but I have no problem sticking with the 2.14b firmware, and fully enjoying my use of the X3 with that.

For the record, I'm not trying to blast the firmware developers with any of this. I think they're doing a spectacular job. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what, for me, is a sound quality show-stopper with the latest release.

 

[SallymaeHogsby]

 
...  But it results in a loss of midrange information...

 
That's the reason why I switched back to 2.14, and put up with the occasional freeze after a track.  Orchestral classical music (especially) sounds "gutted".

 

[james444]

  <subjective opinion>
So...I finally got time to try the 3.0 firmware, replacing it from 2.14b. I'm listening to 24/96 and 24/192 FLAC from HDTracks, using V-Moda Crossfade M-100s. I hear what people are saying about what they perceive as improvements in the SQ, but I beg to differ. I think I know why. Sure, there seems to be increased detail, stereo separation, soundfield, whatever...but it feels to me like this is all being achieved by the same process as a "widen stereo" channel processing that you can do in any decent audio software. What that basically does is some subtraction of L-R and R-L to each channel, and it results in partial phase cancellation, and significant reduction in your "phantom center". Normally, vocals are centered, and vocals tend to be around the middle of the frequency spectrum, so at first, I thought what I was hearing was a bit of a "classic V" EQ coloring the sound, so I started playing with treble and bass settings. Nothing helped, and that was when I figured out what was going on. I know that not everybody loves Rick Ocasek's voice, but I'd still like to be able to hear it properly in the mix, along with everything else that's supposed to be in the center of the mix...so I dropped back to 2.14b, and I'll be staying there.
</subjective opinion>

 
Finally found the time to upgrade to the 3.0 firmware and I can't say I hear the same as you. I upgraded from an older version (2.05), but I don't think anything has changed about L/R and center imaging. Also A/Bed the same tracks with two of my other DAPs and the spatial presentation seems the same on all three devices.
 
On a completely different note, the new mp3 decoder sounds nothing short of fantastic and I have to give great credit to James, Joe and the development team at Fiio for going that extra mile. While the old decoder was pretty much the worst I ever came across (sorry for being that blunt), the new one sounds extremely clean to a point where I'm unable to discern a difference between high bitrate mp3s and WAV. I'd say it's at least at eye level with Neutron Player, the best I've heard so far, if not better. So kudos to Fiio for rising up from bottom-place right to the top as far as mp3 playback is concerned.
 
Also, big thanks to Mr Trev and to nmatheis for their awesome list based theme, I feel like having upgraded my X3 to a 200% better DAP at no cost at all.

 

[jimmers]

   
Finally found the time to upgrade to the 3.0 firmware and I can't say I hear the same as you. I upgraded from an older version (2.05)

It's the comparison with 2.14B that has some people dissatisfied with 3.0, not earlier versions.
FW 2.14b was generally accepted (?) as markedly superior to previous FW.

 

[Chaz1952]

I just ordered the x3. It is my initiation into HQ portable audio. Been working my way through this massive thread. I think I'll start off by copying my mp3 library- it's at 320kps-and via iTunes-and slowly add HQ files. Any links to suggestions regarding format:FLAC vs wav? Also, what kind of work flow do you use with your PC and X3? How can I be sure the tags are not an issue?

 

[Stuff Jones]

I just ordered the x3. It is my initiation into HQ portable audio. Been working my way through this massive thread. I think I'll start off by copying my mp3 library- it's at 320kps-and via iTunes-and slowly add HQ files. Any links to suggestions regarding format:FLAC vs wav? Also, what kind of work flow do you use with your PC and X3? How can I be sure the tags are not an issue?

 
Flac. Its the same quality as WAV but 60% the size and allows for tagging. Not sure what you mean by workflow. I use foobar for tagging.

 

[Stuff Jones]

Has anyone A/B'd 2.14b and 3.0?
 
With 2.14b I hear better mids and separation.
 
With 3.0 I hear a more cohesive/accurate sound stage.
 
Not sure if its confirmation bias having read this thread though.

 

[snapple10]

wrong thread,sorry

 

[Chaz1952]

Thanks, Stuff.
I'm just trying to get a handle on the process for readying files for copying to the X3.
Since I'm starting from scratch, I want to do it correctly.
By workflow I mean:
-Using Ashampoo Burning Studio on my Windows 7 P, I would rip a CD to FLAC format, saving the album in a folder.
(Not sure if I would label the folder by Artist name or Album name...)
When I connect the X3 to the computer, I can just drag-and-drop these file folders onto the "TF" card.
The X3 puts them in Categories, if I understand correctly?
I'll have to look at FOOBAR, I am not familar with it.
Eventually, I'll back all these files up on an external HD.
(i already have my iTunes mp3 library backed-up.)
Again, Any additional information is greatly appreciated!
Thanks, all.
Charlie

 

[Marlene]

  <subjective opinion>
So...I finally got time to try the 3.0 firmware, replacing it from 2.14b. I'm listening to 24/96 and 24/192 FLAC from HDTracks, using V-Moda Crossfade M-100s. I hear what people are saying about what they perceive as improvements in the SQ, but I beg to differ. I think I know why. Sure, there seems to be increased detail, stereo separation, soundfield, whatever...but it feels to me like this is all being achieved by the same process as a "widen stereo" channel processing that you can do in any decent audio software. What that basically does is some subtraction of L-R and R-L to each channel, and it results in partial phase cancellation, and significant reduction in your "phantom center". Normally, vocals are centered, and vocals tend to be around the middle of the frequency spectrum, so at first, I thought what I was hearing was a bit of a "classic V" EQ coloring the sound, so I started playing with treble and bass settings. Nothing helped, and that was when I figured out what was going on. I know that not everybody loves Rick Ocasek's voice, but I'd still like to be able to hear it properly in the mix, along with everything else that's supposed to be in the center of the mix...so I dropped back to 2.14b, and I'll be staying there.
</subjective opinion>

If this is in fact the case and FiiO is starting to monkey around with the sound and not let users know about what has been done. Well then they need to be taken to task over these shenanigans... At least give users the option to turn it off.

I am really starting to think that FW 3.0 is going to be around for a looong time before its updated again. Since basic functionality works for 90% of the users, all the other menu items are going to take the back seat of this bus.

Time to roll FW back and give a listen...

  Maybe you mean add some anti-phase L channel to R channel, and some anti-phase R channel to L channel.

(If you subtract some L-R and R-L from each channel you get:   -((L-R) +(R-L)) which = -0 to each channel)
 
If the former is the case, record something onto right channel only, if it's adding anti-phase you will get something on the left channel, yes? That way you can move from conjecture to fact. 

 

 
Just record a stereo track filled with white noise that´s played back by the X3 using the two firmwares.
 
To have a look at any phase related problems I´d suggest a phase-correlation measurement tool (WaveLab contains one for example). I couldn´t find any difference in phases... but I´ve just had a quick look at it.
 
Seems a bit strange suggesting all of this since so many people opt to alter the sound using bass / treble controls anyway. Why now the confusion about "correct" playback?
 
BTW, if at all, the new firmware 3.0 features the more "correct" sound, firmware 2.14 got it all wrong IMO.

 

[umdesch4]

  Seems a bit strange suggesting all of this since so many people opt to alter the sound using bass / treble controls anyway. Why now the confusion about "correct" playback?
 

I mentioned that no amount of fiddling with the treble and bass would correct for the loss of sound in the "phantom center", at least in the time I gave it last night. SallymaeHogsby got it right a few posts ago when she said that classical music sounds "gutted". I was listening to some Vivaldi today on the 3.0 fw, and the solo violinist sounded a little washed out. If that's how it's supposed to sound, I'll stick with "wrong" because all of my other DAP outputs sound just as wrong, and much better to my ears. I dunno what to tell other people, maybe my unit is defective in some kind of way that only exhibits itself when running the 3.0 fw?