Testing audiophile claims and myths
Aug 31, 2022 at 6:50 AM Post #15,736 of 17,336
It is hard to grasp why people are so hardliners of some simple point even when they are practically on the same side. It reminds me the movie Zelig from Woody Allen, when he starts beating up the visitors with a stick when they don't agree with his idea of weather not being good. As far as I remember, that was after a long theraphy treatment to improve Zelig's self conidence.
 
Last edited:
Aug 31, 2022 at 7:02 AM Post #15,737 of 17,336
I just realized I missed balanced cables…

For use in the home, balanced cables don’t offer any advantage, but if they look cool to you, go to town, my man!

I tried to inject a little jovial friendliness to counter the dour judgemental attitude of so many posts. How is that working?
 
Aug 31, 2022 at 8:13 AM Post #15,738 of 17,336
Let me try to do it in three *words*, not three sentences…

Cables don’t matter.
You used 3 words and I used only one. They effectively state the opposite to each other but both are correct under certain circumstances and wrong under others. You already know that your 3 words are wrong because you’ve already effectively stated that the wrong cable for the job or a faulty cable does matter!

You’ve also failed to mention the condition of equal cable length. Nor have you defined “matter” to mean audible performance, because for most consumers visual appearance also “matters”, at least to some degree.
If this works, then we’re done with 90% of the cable posts.
But it doesn’t work and you’d actually be done with about 0% of cable posts. Plus, you already know your 3 word answer is wrong, it does not necessarily agree with the facts/science, so how does such an assertion have any more validity than the assertions we see in the cables forum? And, how is it not obvious that such an unqualified assertion does more harm than good in a subforum differentiated by the very fact that it is based on fact/science?

We’ve had this argument before bigshot, a Sound Science forum cannot be defined by oversimplifications which contradict science or by only what “matters” to you personally. If that’s what you want, start your own forum but please do not undermine this one!

G
 
Aug 31, 2022 at 8:58 AM Post #15,739 of 17,336
Here’s the game… see if you can make your reply clearer and more concise than the post you’re replying to. Don’t answer three paragraphs with six. That can result in the literary equivalent of a nuclear meltdown!

Another fun game… let’s apply the points made about cables to other things!

Cables don’t sound the same if they are defective or the wrong cable for the job.

On an overcast day, it’s nice to settle in with a hot cup of tea in a bone China cup, unless the bone China cup is broken and the scalding hot tea pours straight into your lap, or the cup is actually a bone China chamber pot and the teapot isn’t big enough to fill it.

It’s a good thing we added those caveats! If we didn’t, people would have scalded crotches and be drinking from potties!
 
Last edited:
Aug 31, 2022 at 9:15 AM Post #15,740 of 17,336
Here’s the game… see if you can make your reply clearer and more concise than the post you’re replying to. Don’t answer three paragraphs with six.
No, that is NOT the game! If you want to play your own game with your own rules then setup your own forum and stop trying to convert this one.

The “game” I am playing is to make my replies as factually accurate and in agreement with the science as I am able. Being concise has to be a consideration but hopefully NOT at the expense of rule #1.

How is the above not obvious to you?

G
 
Aug 31, 2022 at 9:22 AM Post #15,741 of 17,336
Here’s the game… see if you can make your reply clearer and more concise than the post you’re replying to. Don’t answer three paragraphs with six. That can result in the literary equivalent of a nuclear meltdown!

Another fun game… let’s apply the points made about cables to other things!

Cables don’t sound the same if they are defective or the wrong cable for the job.

On an overcast day, it’s nice to settle in with a hot cup of tea in a bone China cup, unless the bone China cup is broken and the scalding hot tea pours straight into your lap, or the cup is actually a bone China chamber pot and the teapot isn’t big enough to fill it.

It’s a good thing we added those caveats! If we didn’t, people would have scalded crotches and be drinking from potties!

This is getting old Bigshot. If you're not interested in sound science, why do you continue to post in Sound Science?

All these posts do is make it easier for audiophiles to use the edge cases you want to ignore as "proof" that science is incorrect.

Perhaps we need a new forum - "Inaccurate and/or incomplete science that fits Bigshot's personal preferences"
 
Aug 31, 2022 at 1:48 PM Post #15,743 of 17,336
Cables, as long as they are the right cable for the job and they aren’t defective, all sound the same… uncolored and perfect. A fancy cable can’t sound better than an inexpensive cable, a defective or inappropriate cable can only sound worse. There’s no reason to spend a lot on a cable. Just buy an inexpensive one that is solidly made.

Three sentences, and that’s more than is really needed to get the idea across, because I’m just trying to head off some of the bloviating at the pass. I can really be more clear, succinct and concise. Let me try to do it in three *words*, not three sentences…
Yes, you get "the idea" across with these three sentences, but you can't use them to debunk claims about cables based on tests made with 40 nanosecond pulses! You need to go more scientific and explain how 40 nanosecond pulses are so far outside the bandwidth of (analog) audio that it doesn't matter AT ALL if a cable performs badly with 40 nanosecond pulses.

Cables don’t matter.
Sometimes they do! If you need a long HDMI cable to transfer 4K video + Atmos sound, cables probably matter. If you have speakers with very low minimum impedance (say 1-2 Ω) and you need long cables, you need to careful about how thin cables you use or you may cause problems with frequency response and even damping!
 
Aug 31, 2022 at 6:44 PM Post #15,744 of 17,336
The exact reason some home user might want go to balanced (aside from fart sniffing) is to do a full house audio system snaked through say a crawl space or similar. 100-200ft runs are not out of the question.
 
Aug 31, 2022 at 10:57 PM Post #15,745 of 17,336
Yes, you get "the idea" across with these three sentences, but you can't use them to debunk claims about cables based on tests made with 40 nanosecond pulses! You need to go more scientific and explain how 40 nanosecond pulses are so far outside the bandwidth of (analog) audio that it doesn't matter AT ALL if a cable performs badly with 40 nanosecond pulses.
Maybe this video doing the rounds of various forums may explain chasing minute time differences:

But I’m guessing the only way such small differences could be noticed is if the final transducer, headphone or speakers was capable of reproducing such minute levels,
The Wilson speakers referred to are around $850k … 😳
 
Sep 1, 2022 at 1:39 AM Post #15,746 of 17,336
The exact reason some home user might want go to balanced (aside from fart sniffing) is to do a full house audio system snaked through say a crawl space or similar. 100-200ft runs are not out of the question.
Good point! Clear and concise and helpful to people putting together a home system. Good job. You win this round. The fart sniffing gag is good for extra credit points for having a sense of humor.

The no ground loops one isn't as helpful because that is usually a fault of a funky computer, not the external the audio equipment.
 
Last edited:
Sep 1, 2022 at 10:39 AM Post #15,747 of 17,336
Maybe this video doing the rounds of various forums may explain chasing minute time differences:

But I’m guessing the only way such small differences could be noticed is if the final transducer, headphone or speakers was capable of reproducing such minute levels,
The Wilson speakers referred to are around $850k … 😳

This is really frustrating for me to watch. It’s full of accurate and well researched/demonstrated information, but it’s also full of misleading ideas and conclusions, more by omission and cherry picking the magnitudes for the demos, than by actually lying, but misleading anyway. Bringing audiophiles in the middle of it, is for me where clear dishonesty is at play. Then again he got everybody talking about him with that strategic clickbait. So, great success!
In several such amalgams the facts come from experiments under conditions that cannot be matched with actual music and listening conditions, so acting like one is conclusive for the other is a clear mistake and I’m sure that as a researcher he knows better.

Demonstrating the impact of timing by moving the start of one of 2 tones looks like a problem we could have with huge phase shifts from crossovers or BA drivers. But only at first glance. Remove the time aligned reference we can play anytime and it instantly becomes much harder to identify a problem. Add more tones(even a single instrument has more than 2 tones at once) to match actual music and of course it again becomes harder to perceive the specific freq or freqs that are getting delayed. Change the delay, pick a second signal that’s not exactly double of the first, etc and the result will mostly be harder to notice.

Telling audiophiles that the transient response is very important for audibility when the so called demo does nothing short of cutting the entire transient out of the signal... come on! To prove that the brand of paint matters, you go and remove the house as counter example? The phenomenon mentioned is real of course, but it cannot serve to justify audiophile anything as no generic playback system just magically eats up all transients in the music. The very worst that can happen is to lose the higher frequency content of it, for which audibility is IMO hard to prove even now if the filter doesn’t audibly attenuate the audible range.

Hair cells triggerings are much more common than just when we get the one signal we care about. They seems to get triggered for any bodily or external noises, some will activate with head movements, some are bent out of shape and basically alway on, and I seem to remember a triggering no matter what, somewhere around 100 times/s?(might be just as bs as my usual memory of numbers).
My point is that there is constantly noise sent by the hair cells. That obviously changes everything for the brain and what it will treat as an audio cue or when it will even get a signal.

There is also the obvious lack of discussing auditory masking in both time and amplitude with any complex signal like music, even though again, he keeps bringing up audiophiles and their gears. That doesn’t serve his narrative so I get why it’s omitted.

The argument about the sound system that couldn’t convince him there’s a grand piano playing in front of him, well that’s just the wonder of listening with his eyes. There is a high chance that if he was hearing a hidden grand piano while thinking he’s demoing a sound system he saw in front of him, he would still not be convinced that it sounds like a grand piano.


The frack is the last thing he shows while talking interconnects?

I now feel a need to go create a brand of audiophile bananas with all the stuff that neurons need for cleaner action potential that improves soundstage. And maybe also Brawndo Myelin for improved digital connectivity in the head.
 
Sep 1, 2022 at 12:23 PM Post #15,748 of 17,336
Maybe this video doing the rounds of various forums may explain chasing minute time differences:

But I’m guessing the only way such small differences could be noticed is if the final transducer, headphone or speakers was capable of reproducing such minute levels,
The Wilson speakers referred to are around $850k … 😳

Comments on the video:

Firstly: It is ironic how a video about High End Audio has really crappy sound quality! This is painful to listen to!

The "timber" example of 440 Hz + 880 Hz (50 % + 50 % vs 60 % + 40 %): the example B means 3.5 dB variation of "flat" frequency response which is somewhat good if not excellent response, expecially with speakers in a room. Low performance systems (e.g. TV speakers) can have easily 3 times bigger variation (10 dB). So, this example is not very extreme: The difference in timber of A and B should not be massive to begin with.

The delay example: 880 Hz signal is delayed 3/4 cycles of 440 Hz = 1.7 ms! Sound travels almost 2 feet in that time! To create this much delay between 440 Hz and 880 Hz in a speaker, you'd need "the worst acoustic engineering in human history" level screw up! Also, the examples are very short, so losing a lot of the 880 Hz in the begining really stick out and also, these are busts of sinewave, not musical signals that have a non-zero attack time.

The phase example: Hearing is pretty insensitive to phase shift. Phase is most important when signals of same frequency are summed, because they may cancel each other causing massive amplitude changes.

So, the delay difference was made a massive issue by an example that is totally unrealistic Nobody listens to "music" made of short 440 Hz and 880 Hz bursts with speakers with the worst acoustic engineering ever. Everything matters. It is just where are limits of audibility / high fidelity. How much from flat can the frequency response be? How much group delay can there be? How much phase shift can there be? Any of these matters, if you don't need the requirements!

The time reversal example: Well, of course piano sounds different played backwards! What crappy sound system plays music backwards? We humans are good at telling causal and non-causal processes apart, because non-causal processes are unnatural. No wonder piano sound played backwards sounds unnatural (different!)

Equating "needed" time resolution with one cycle of the highest frequency you can hear seems strange. Human hearing is much more complex than that! At least that is addressed later in the video.

Multi-way speakers (such as the Wilson Audio one) need to time-align the separate speakers elements, but mainly between neighbouring bands! You don't need microsecond accuracy between bass and treble! At lower frequencies the temporal accuracy is less crucial. The 0.4 microsecond rise time thing with the amp isn't important. Rise time is not the same as temporal accuracy! It is the bandwidth of the amp. 1.8 MHz bandwidth is overkill.

All the human hearing thing is to make audience believe this man knows what he is talking about. He certainly does know, but is he honest?

My thoughts: Most people can't afford High End Audio gear, but Professor Kuncher probably can, because maybe he has been hired (with good pay!) by High End companies to make presentations like this one.

I wasted time watching that video and writing this comment. I should have been listening to Bach's secular cantatas!
 
Last edited:
Sep 1, 2022 at 1:15 PM Post #15,749 of 17,336
Maybe this video doing the rounds of various forums may explain chasing minute time differences:
But it doesn’t. A few micro-secs isn’t a minute amount of time in digital audio, it’s a huge amount of time, even for good old CD. There are some other issues in the vid that others have mentioned but I don’t get how audiophiles can use it to support some argument.

G
 
Sep 1, 2022 at 2:12 PM Post #15,750 of 17,336
But it doesn’t. A few micro-secs isn’t a minute amount of time in digital audio, it’s a huge amount of time, even for good old CD. There are some other issues in the vid that others have mentioned but I don’t get how audiophiles can use it to support some argument.

G
True, but the video doesn't talk about digital audio/good old CD. It talks mainly about speakers, doesn't it?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top