[KeithPhantom]

iphone dac is not up to that “standard”

I don't think the iPhone's DAC/amp is the problem (usually they measure good), it could be output impedance, amplification requirements not met, any leakage inside the electronic circuit, there are a million things that can fail. Also, remember to level-match, our brains are used to judge the loudest as the best.

If you have a chance you can always test audio gear in shop that’s the best way

Actually, I found that by looking at the measurements and comparing them to the measurements that my ears like the most I can narrow down my options faster than just listening alone, but that's for headphones/speakers. For DAC and amps, measurements tell you everything you need to know (even of they have the sound you're looking for)

 

[hakunamakaka]

I don't think the iPhone's DAC/amp is the problem (usually they measure good), it could be output impedance, amplification requirements not met, any leakage inside the electronic circuit, there are a million things that can fail. Also, remember to level-match, our brains are used to judge the loudest as the best.
Actually, I found that by looking at the measurements and comparing them to the measurements that my ears like the most I can narrow down my options faster than just listening alone, but that's for headphones/speakers. For DAC and amps, measurements tell you everything you need to know (even of they have the sound you're looking for)

Ofcourse it might be that iphone/macbook circuit is noisy as there are many other things ongoing there, I’m just saying that my portable finger sized S1 improves sq by a lot, even putting louder volume on my iphone, it sounds thiner and more congested. I was a bit angry and on urge to sell my em10 until I’ve put my hands on S1.
I’m not big believer in graphs and measurments, for me sound is more like a beauty, every brain can intercept it differently and perception can change depending on your mood. I have pure tube preamp which measures awfully, but I’m in love with it that still till this day collecting LP’s

 

[KeithPhantom]

Ofcourse it might be that iphone/macbook circuit is noisy as there are many other things ongoing there, I’m just saying that my portable finger sized S1 improves sq by a lot, even putting louder volume on my iphone, it sounds thiner and more congested. I was a bit angry and on urge to sell my em10 until I’ve put my hands on S1.
I’m not big believer in graphs and measurments, for me sound is more like a beauty, every brain can intercept it differently and perception can change depending on your mood. I have pure tube preamp which measures awfully, but I’m in love with it that still till this day collecting LP’s

Don't think that I am going to shove you with measurements and stuff, if you have your opinion I respect it. I am in love with engineering challenges (as stupid as it sounds, but it is interesting to see companies striving to build the best measuring DAC even if there is no audible improvement) and with music (I am able to isolate knowledge and enjoyment at will). Just enjoy and you don't have to care about measurements to enjoy music, the problem is to deny facts (that's when I start getting annoyed by others) that can mislead others.

 

[bigshot]

Might be that iphone dac is not up to that “standard”. I tried few budget portable dac/amps with my old pm3 and earsonics em10 CIEM and difference between iphone jack and lotoo S1 is huge for me

Impedance mismatch. That is an amping issue, not the quality of the DAC. The DACs in Apple products have always been well into the range of audible overkill. Amp the output and it will be perfect.

I'm going to be honest... When you guys launch into alphabet soups of model numbers, I totally zone out. Most of the "common knowledge" about specific models is just repetition of other people's subjective impressions. I have no interest in that because most of it is bogus. If you can clearly hear a difference in DACs under controlled testing conditions, I'll bother to look up specific models. If you don't know how to do a controlled listening test, I would be happy to help you.

Of course it might be that iphone/macbook circuit is noisy as there are many other things ongoing there

Nope. You are wrong. I've done controlled tests with several iPhones, iPods and various Macs going back to the 8500 AV and they are all audibly transparent. I've compared the iPhone to Oppo HA-1 and various blu-ray players. They all sound the same. If you are hearing noise, you probably have an impedance mismatch.

 

[hakunamakaka]

Impedance mismatch. That is an amping issue, not the quality of the DAC. The DACs in Apple products have always been well into the range of audible overkill. Amp the output and it will be perfect.

I'm going to be honest... When you guys launch into alphabet soups of model numbers, I totally zone out. Most of the "common knowledge" about specific models is just repetition of other people's subjective impressions. I have no interest in that because most of it is bogus. If you can clearly hear a difference in DACs under controlled testing conditions, I'll bother to look up specific models. If you don't know how to do a controlled listening test, I would be happy to help you.



Nope. You are wrong. I've done controlled tests with several iPhones, iPods and various Macs going back to the 8500 AV and they are all audibly transparent. I've compared the iPhone to Oppo HA-1 and various blu-ray players. They all sound the same. If you are hearing noise, you probably have an impedance mismatch.

I do not hear any noise going directly via iphone jack, but soundstage, depth, seperation increases with lotoo S1. For my "in ears", iphone power output is more than enough and I dare to say anyone with hearing capabilities would be able to tell the difference between iphone and S1. I use S1 with one of the EQ which are available on it as it fits me best, but even with none it sounds more clean than iphone. Prior I bought cheap portable amp from ali express Leory SD05 to drive my planar headphones, but this did nothing in comparison, just bringing few notches up regards volume.

I'm by no means skilled in sound science or interested in measurements and graphs, but I can differ what is more up to my liking. I always leaned towards warmer sound signature, to able to feel the "weight" on instruments and space between them..I do not chase most "accurate" and "transparent" sound, if it's colored to my likings I'm happy.
Oppo HA-1 is way above in class than my tiny S1 dac/amp, but I haven't heard it...If you say it's all in my imagination, so be it, I will not argue

 

[castleofargh]

Declaring it's placebo without evidence or ample information, is not better than declaring the DAC changed the soundstage on a hunch.
But what's true is that almost anything audible can change our spatial impression(non audio cues can do that too).

My confident expert opinion is that I don't know. I think it's a powerful position.

 

[bigshot]

I do not hear any noise going directly via iphone jack, but soundstage, depth, seperation increases with lotoo S1. For my "in ears", iphone power output is more than enough and I dare to say anyone with hearing capabilities would be able to tell the difference between iphone and S1.

Time to do a line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind listening test to find out if that's correct. If you'd like help setting up the test, I'd be happy to help you.

By the way, "soundstage depth and separation" are typically how level differences are described. That is exactly what it sounds like if one sample is a little louder than the other. The iPhone has been measured very thoroughly, and its performance rivals high end DACs. Odds are the problem you're experiencing isn't because of the DAC in the iPhone. Impedance issues, level differences, expectation bias... it could be one of several things, or a combination of all of them.

 

[hakunamakaka]

I can’t comment on standalone dac’s as I bought only budget, portable dac/amp combo for mobile use.HA-2 sounding cleanest, but with S1 presentation is on different level for me. There is a track “Borusiade - A body” and there is a part where vocals starts echoing left-right channel, with s1 dac/amp and my pm3 hp I’m hearing those echoes going above my head, with iphone only I would have to focus and push my imagination a bit. Send me a pm bigshot on how to do a blind test I will gladly do it, but please be aware that S1 is colouring the sound. For me it would be easy guess

 

[bigshot]

How is it coloring the sound? Does it not have a flat frequency response? Is it injecting distortion? If either of these are the case, then you totally would be able to discern a difference if the coloration reaches the level of audibility. Is the S1 a tube amp? Do you have published specs for it?

 

[hakunamakaka]

How is it coloring the sound? Does it not have a flat frequency response? Is it injecting distortion? If either of these are the case, then you totally would be able to discern a difference if the coloration reaches the level of audibility. Is the S1 a tube amp? Do you have published specs for it?

No it’s a tiny usb dongle dac/amp, just google lotoo S1. Maybe it’s somehow artificially amends soundstage and presentation I don’t know..but I preffer sound through this dongle anytime over my iphone. I even got closer to my turntable setup via digital when used this dongle instead of macbook output with EQ set to “movie” and only if bass didn’t get loose and highs a bit sharp, that would have been a steal for me

 

[bigshot]

Is it advertised as deliberately coloring sound?

Is this what we're talking about? https://www.amazon.com/Lotoo-PAW-S1-Portable-DAC-Amp/dp/B088W3FQ4V

 

[hakunamakaka]

Is it advertised as deliberately coloring sound?

Is this what we're talking about? https://www.amazon.com/Lotoo-PAW-S1-Portable-DAC-Amp/dp/B088W3FQ4V

Yes exactly, I’m not sure how it’s advertised though. Only thing that annoys me is interference with phone, but I preffer this in exchange of what I can hear via S1

 

[bigshot]

Others here might see something I'm overlooking, but there's no coloration at all indicated by the specs.

Interference is a different thing from fidelity.

What kind of headphones do you use with this?

 

[hakunamakaka]

I bought in ears “earsonics em10” and was so disappointed that at the beggining I wanted to sell them, but this dongle improved the sound and even my oppo pm-3 sounds way better with it. I use different EQ settings though which are available on S1. Even with none it sounds a bit warmer for me. I’ve tested many portable dac/amps...only ha-2 and S1 shifted sound signature for me. The main thing for me is the EQ presets and how the sound can be improved through them.

 

[bigshot]

If you're using EQ, all bets are off. The EQ is adding the color and improving the sound, not the DAC. That totally explains it.