Testing audiophile claims and myths

[KeithEmo]

I didn't mind the weight. The problem was that the wires were so stiff that, when you moved your head, they would literally clatter as they bumped together. Then, because they were so stiff, the sound would be transmitted through the wires and into the ear cup, and was clearly audible. (So, when you moved your head, you heard little rattling noises - a lot.)
 
I seem to recall seeing cables that looked like that as aftermarket additions, but I don't recall HiFiMan making a point about what cables they included with the headphones, and I don't recall seeing a picture of the cables before I bought the phones. I suppose they made some sort of deal with some cable maker and imagined they were doing us a favor by including a "high end" cable with the headphones. (I would have been a lot happier if they'd offered a choice of ordinary flexible cables with soft rubber sheaths.)
 
Cables aside, I thought the headphones themselves, while quite heavy, were really VERY comfortable. I finally sold them because, while they sounded very smooth, they were also very laid back - the high end and midrange were very clear, but the high end was very recessed, which is not the sound that I favor.
 
I would also throw something out there to anyone thinking of making their own cables. Unless it's changed, HiFiMan used to use those nice little gold plated screw on connectors at the ear cups (I forget what they're officially called). If you want to make your own cables, you can buy the connectors separately from some high end shops for about $20 each. However, if you look around, you'll find that those same connectors are used for WiFi antenna signals.... and can be bought under that description on eBay and elsewhere - for around half that price or a bit less. Note that they are tiny, and are a real nuisance to solder.
 
Quote:

  Amongst my cans are a pair pf HE-500's. I thought they were the only ones that Hifiman made that came with a stiff microphonic cable made of twisted Teflon insulated silver wire. Silver or copper I don't care, however, the ergonomics suck. I really like the HE-500's, yes I have a strong weight bearing neck.

 

[StanD]

 
I didn't mind the weight. The problem was that the wires were so stiff that, when you moved your head, they would literally clatter as they bumped together. Then, because they were so stiff, the sound would be transmitted through the wires and into the ear cup, and was clearly audible. (So, when you moved your head, you heard little rattling noises - a lot.)
 
I seem to recall seeing cables that looked like that as aftermarket additions, but I don't recall HiFiMan making a point about what cables they included with the headphones, and I don't recall seeing a picture of the cables before I bought the phones. I suppose they made some sort of deal with some cable maker and imagined they were doing us a favor by including a "high end" cable with the headphones. (I would have been a lot happier if they'd offered a choice of ordinary flexible cables with soft rubber sheaths.)
 
Cables aside, I thought the headphones themselves, while quite heavy, were really VERY comfortable. I finally sold them because, while they sounded very smooth, they were also very laid back - the high end and midrange were very clear, but the high end was very recessed, which is not the sound that I favor.
 
I would also throw something out there to anyone thinking of making their own cables. Unless it's changed, HiFiMan used to use those nice little gold plated screw on connectors at the ear cups (I forget what they're officially called). If you want to make your own cables, you can buy the connectors separately from some high end shops for about $20 each. However, if you look around, you'll find that those same connectors are used for WiFi antenna signals.... and can be bought under that description on eBay and elsewhere - for around half that price or a bit less. Note that they are tiny, and are a real nuisance to solder.

That's what I meant by microphonic, but in a mechanically sonic conductive manner, not like tubes. You know brown zip cord is cheap and I'm sure we can find something that is reasonably flexible. Which cable thread is the right one to ask about this?

 

[castleofargh]

yeah, microphonic somehow has been so misused that I'm inclined to accept and use it as the legit term for mechanical cable noises now. it's one of those "when everybody's wrong, it's just faster to change the definition". ^_^

 

[KeithEmo]

For headphone cable, Canare StarQuad is absolutely my choice(in 20 gauge). It's very flexible and rubbery, feels very nice, costs about fifty cents a foot, and even comes in assorted colors. The only downside is that it is a little heavy - but I like a cable that has a bit of heft to it. (It's available at most serious parts suppliers by the foot.)
 
Quote:

  That's what I meant by microphonic, but in a mechanically sonic conductive manner, not like tubes. You know brown zip cord is cheap and I'm sure we can find something that is reasonably flexible. Which cable thread is the right one to ask about this?

 

[StanD]

For headphone cable, Canare StarQuad is absolutely my choice(in 20 gauge). It's very flexible and rubbery, feels very nice, costs about fifty cents a foot, and even comes in assorted colors. The only downside is that it is a little heavy - but I like a cable that has a bit of heft to it. (It's available at most serious parts suppliers by the foot.)

I see that listed a microphone cable. As long as the gauge/resistance  and capacitance are low, it's probably good to go. I walk past B&H twice a day, they have it in 200m reels that are far more than I need. Does it come without foil shielding?

 

[KeithEmo]

The thinner 24 gauge starquad cable is foil shielded and is considered to be "microphone cable".
 
The heavier Canare 4S6 is 20 gauge and unshielded and is considered to be "speaker cable". That's the one I used (20 gauge is somewhat heavy for headphones - and way too thin for speakers).
 
They also make a super-flexible in-between one which is said to be "super flexible" but is shielded and is considered to be high-end microphone cable. The shielding will make terminating it slightly more difficult, but the capacitance really shouldn't be a significant issue. (If it isn't capacitive enough to be a problem for a microphone, I doubt a headphone amp would have trouble.)
 
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=53
 
I've only listed a few, there seem to be quite a few variations of Canare Starquad.
(They're all pretty standard, widely available, and come in assorted colors.)
 
 
Quote:

  I see that listed a microphone cable. As long as the gauge/resistance  and capacitance are low, it's probably good to go. I walk past B&H twice a day, they have it in 200m reels that are far more than I need. Does it come without foil shielding?

 

[StanD]

Originally Posted by KeithEmo /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The thinner 24 gauge starquad cable is foil shielded and is considered to be "microphone cable".
 
The heavier Canare 4S6 is 20 gauge and unshielded and is considered to be "speaker cable". That's the one I used (20 gauge is somewhat heavy for headphones - and way too thin for speakers).
 
They also make a super-flexible in-between one which is said to be "super flexible" but is shielded and is considered to be high-end microphone cable. The shielding will make terminating it slightly more difficult, but the capacitance really shouldn't be a significant issue. (If it isn't capacitive enough to be a problem for a microphone, I doubt a headphone amp would have trouble.)
 
http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=53
 
I've only listed a few, there seem to be quite a few variations of Canare Starquad.
(They're all pretty standard, widely available, and come in assorted colors.)

I didn't expect capacitance to be an issue as headphones tend to be lower impedance than microphones (excluding the 600 Ohm variants) and can tolerate more capacitance, especially when driven by a low impedance amp which deals with the load, yes to much can make the amp unstable. The cable I saw online was 20 GA but had a foil shield. I'll look for the 4S6 type that you mentioned. Thanks.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Hi all. One of my occasional visits to edit the OP, check links, add some more stuff I have found.

I am still listening with the set up I ended up with a few years back, Spotify on a laptop (Toshiba now) with an expensive USB to Firestone DAC and PSU, linked with an expensive IC to my MF X-CAN V8P to my trusty collection of headphones, primarily the AKG K271 Mk II (plus some decent Russ Andrews power cords and a Silencer). Proper blind testing still tells me that the premium bit rate on Spotify and the headphones are the only parts of the set up that make an audible difference!

 

[bigshot]

Thanks for the update! This is an important post. Come back and visit with us every once in a while.

 

[amirm]

That is an incredible archive of blind tests performed in OP! Well done.

It is missing this ABX test of amplifiers which I unearthed a few years ago, by advocates of ABX testing: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ts-did-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different.23/

 

[richard51]

Great site indeed...Congratulations, I only read one article about dac measurement and it was more than clear, then I

subscribed to your site thanks very much....​

That is an incredible archive of blind tests performed in OP! Well done.

It is missing this ABX test of amplifiers which I unearthed a few years ago, by advocates of ABX testing: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ts-did-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different.23/

 

[SilverEars]

Z-Reviews are entertaining I will admit. Compared to all the bull-crap reviews out there, his is not bad.

 

[bigshot]

I don't think it should be surprising that a vastly overpriced audiophile woo amp might sound different. I bet it measures terrible too.

 

[Zapp_Fan]

I don't think it should be surprising that a vastly overpriced audiophile woo amp might sound different. I bet it measures terrible too.

Some people are really into distortion, and a weirdly designed amp can certainly provide that for you... and that's before you even get into the tubes...

 

[KeithEmo]

Interesting..... and I also find your choices about where to spend money somewhat unusual.

For example pairing "an expensive DAC, PSU, and cables" with Spotify - which uses lossy compression (the premium service just uses BETTER but still lossy compression), and AKG K271 MkII (which I have owned and did NOT find to be especially good at delivering fine detail).
Without starting another lengthy discussion about what "should" be audible, I wonder if you might notice more differences with a higher quality source (like CD or high-res files), or more detailed headphones.
(From your description, I would definitely expect Spotify to be the limiting factor with your system, followed by the AKG K271 MkII's.)

Hi all. One of my occasional visits to edit the OP, check links, add some more stuff I have found.

I am still listening with the set up I ended up with a few years back, Spotify on a laptop (Toshiba now) with an expensive USB to Firestone DAC and PSU, linked with an expensive IC to my MF X-CAN V8P to my trusty collection of headphones, primarily the AKG K271 Mk II (plus some decent Russ Andrews power cords and a Silencer). Proper blind testing still tells me that the premium bit rate on Spotify and the headphones are the only parts of the set up that make an audible difference!