[bigshot]

  playing vinyl is a destructive process.

 
I have a 100 year old acoustic phonograph. No electricity involved. It uses a steel nail to play the record and the tonearm weighs about a pound. That means that the point of the nail and the groove come together with tremendous force. I came across a mint copy of a record, so I decided to do a test. I transferred the record with an electronic turntable. Then I played it 100 times on my acoustic phonograph. I was sick of that song by the time I was done. Then I transferred it electronically again and compared the before and after. They were identical.
 
The truth is that records are *designed* to be played. If your turntable is in proper alignment, you will get sick of the music long before the record shows any signs of wear. The thrashed LPs out there in junk stores are messed up because they were abused and played on turntables that were so far out of alignment, they could cut their own grooves. It's not because the records were worn out by proper playing and handling.

 

[ferday]

I'm sure it's true!

But it's still "a destructive process". Science doesn't allow for otherwise, regardless of how small the changes really are

I was simply pointing out the likely reason for the comment (other then pure antagonism that is)

 

[castleofargh]

one of the surfaces has to give for the other one to last longer. but even then physic is still physic, even water drops end up making holes in rocks if you give them enough time.
the needle needs to handle the heat and constant friction, so it cannot be really soft and fragile in a way that would preserve vinyls very well the best.
my analogy to this is my wacom ^_^. the tip of the pen get eaten away pretty fast and I have to change it several times a year, but that way the surface of the tablet itself still looks perfectly fine after years of abuse.

 

[bigshot]

Actually, on an acoustic phonograph the needles wear out so the record doesn't. The needles are soft nickel plated steel with a rounded point, and the shellac of the record contains abrasives that wear the steel needle down so it fits snugly in the groove after the first couple of spins. You change steel needles with every record you play and throw away the old ones. If you keep using the same steel needle over and over, the abrasives sharpen the needle until it starts gouging into the bottom of the groove instead of riding on top of it.
 
Clever counter-intuitive system, but it works.

 

[castleofargh]

  Actually, on an acoustic phonograph the needles wear out so the record doesn't. The needles are soft nickel plated steel with a rounded point, and the shellac of the record contains abrasives that wear the steel needle down so it fits snugly in the groove after the first couple of spins. You change steel needles with every record you play and throw away the old ones. If you keep using the same steel needle over and over, the abrasives sharpen the needle until it starts gouging into the bottom of the groove instead of riding on top of it.
 
Clever counter-intuitive system, but it works.

cool didn't know about that. but it sure makes sense.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Actually, on an acoustic phonograph the needles wear out so the record doesn't. The needles are soft nickel plated steel with a rounded point, and the shellac of the record contains abrasives that wear the steel needle down so it fits snugly in the groove after the first couple of spins. You change steel needles with every record you play and throw away the old ones. If you keep using the same steel needle over and over, the abrasives sharpen the needle until it starts gouging into the bottom of the groove instead of riding on top of it.

Clever counter-intuitive system, but it works.

Sounds interesting. Is there any published literature on the subject?

se

 

[Dobrescu George]

  Actually, on an acoustic phonograph the needles wear out so the record doesn't. The needles are soft nickel plated steel with a rounded point, and the shellac of the record contains abrasives that wear the steel needle down so it fits snugly in the groove after the first couple of spins. You change steel needles with every record you play and throw away the old ones. If you keep using the same steel needle over and over, the abrasives sharpen the needle until it starts gouging into the bottom of the groove instead of riding on top of it.
 
Clever counter-intuitive system, but it works.

This is very nice to know if I am ever planning to get vinyl. 
 
Then how many records can a single needle play before it needs to be changed? Or there are more than one type, and some can play more and some less?

 

[limpidglitch]

  This is very nice to know if I am ever planning to get vinyl. 
 
Then how many records can a single needle play before it needs to be changed? Or there are more than one type, and some can play more and some less?

 
Notice he said "acoustic phonograph" and "shellac", not turntable and vinyl.
Similar, but I suspect vinyl, being a bit softer, should wear a bit faster, and the styli hold a bit longer.
 

 

[lamode]

  It is not a  screw**g headphone - but a phono cartridge. That would make
@bigshot
eat any words regarding vinyl he ever wrote ... - if he only had a chance to listen to it.
It does NOT require any ABX to demonstrate its vast superiority, either - unless you enjoy ABX scientific approach more than actual sound being achieved.

 
It's really not.. CLICK.... difficult to point out... POP... a vinyl record in ... POP.... a vinyl v digital.... CLICK... test. But you won't be able to tell apart a... CLICK... vinyl playback from a high-end digital recording of... POP... the same

 

[bigshot]

Sounds interesting. Is there any published literature on the subject?

 
Published specs and everything!
 
http://www.victor-victrola.com/Soundbox%20Article.htm

 

[bigshot]

  This is very nice to know if I am ever planning to get vinyl.  Then how many records can a single needle play before it needs to be changed?

 
I'm referring to shellac 78s, not vinyl LPs by the way. Each steel needle is good for one record side (4 minutes). After you use it you throw it away. I buy needles in batches of 300 at a time. There are three kinds of needles which each produce a different volume level... soft tone, medium tone and loud tone. Acoustic phonographs don't have volume controls. The dynamics are a straight line from record to the horn. The natural volume level that they heard when it was being recorded.
 
The acoustic recording chain is the same on both ends, just inverted. The singer sings into a horn > vibrates a diaphragm > cuts grooves in beeswax > record is played > vibrates a diaphragm > sound comes out a horn. In essence you are hearing 100 year old vibrations.
 
Nice video limpid! I have that record. It's a good one. That is an Orthophonic Credenza in that video, the top of the Victor line. Saturday, I am getting the main competition for the Credenza, a Brunswick Cortez. The cabinet looks about the same, but the Credenza has a re-entrant folded horn and the Cortez has a huge straight horn made of carefully molded spruce. The Credenza has a little bit more bass, but the sound is a little bit muffled. The Cortez isn't quite as full but the overall sound present and very clear. Cortez's are very rare, because not many of them were made. I'll post a video when I get it.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Published specs and everything!

Thanks, but I was referring to abrasives used in the shellac and needle wear.

se

 

[bigshot]

Here are the articles on needles...
 
http://www.victor-victrola.com/Needles.htm
http://www.victor-victrola.com/Needle%20Article.htm
 
This one talks about the makeup of the records...
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record#78_rpm_materials

 

[analogsurviver]

   
It's really not.. CLICK.... difficult to point out... POP... a vinyl record in ... POP.... a vinyl v digital.... CLICK... test. But you won't be able to tell apart a... CLICK... vinyl playback from a high-end digital recording of... POP... the same

Well, there is no digital gizmo at present that is totally indistinguishable from vinyl played on top gear live. DSD128 is NOT fast enough - maybe DSD256, but more likely DSD512 - or its "approximate counterpart" in PCM. WELL north of 300 kHz sampling frequency.
 
Ironically, a digital copy of vinyl is most easily discernible from the real thing by - clicks and pops. They no longer sound "natural and effortless" - particularly in PCM, and even more so in CD redbook. It is WAY more noise than the record played live... 
 
The bandwidth from great analog gear makes even TOTL present digital look like a kindergarten level.  Even if it is a product of the imperfections of tracking the groove - extending well into the MHz range. These frequencies make digital go berserk most of the time.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Here are the articles on needles...

http://www.victor-victrola.com/Needles.htm
http://www.victor-victrola.com/Needle%20Article.htm

This one talks about the makeup of the records...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record#78_rpm_materials

Thanks! That's what I was looking for. I'll give 'em a read after dinner.

se