Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jan 22, 2015 at 3:43 PM Post #3,856 of 17,336
  "Summary: These listening tests indicate that as a rule, no significant differences could be heard between DSD and high-resolution PCM (24-bit / 176.4 kHz) even with the best equipment, under optimal listening conditions, and with test subjects who had varied listening experience and various ways of focusing on what they hear. Consequently it could be proposed that neither of these systems has a scientific basis for claiming audible superiority over the other. This reality should put a halt to the disputation being carried on by the various PR departments concerned. "

Please DO read what was being compared : DSD has various sample rates, just as PCM does. It can be expressed either as frequency DSD 2.8XYZ MHz - which is 64x CD sampling rate of 44.1 kHz - or simply DSD64. The test in question is from 11 years ago, when there was no commercially DSD recorders with higher sampling rate for DSD - and the only DSD known was DSD64 and there was no requirement to write any numbers along the DSD - it was the only game in town in that age.
 
Only two years later in 2006, Korg came up with commercially available double DSD or DSD128 or DSD at 5.6XYZ MHz. It is about the same difference as from 44.1 to 88.2 -96 kHz sampling rate in PCM - yet this difference sounds different. I consider DSD128 the minimum DSD that is really usable - and am frankly surprised that the listening panel did not find 176.4/24 PCM better than DSD64/SACD .
 
One can of course count on disputations when large(r) sums of money are at stake - some things will never change.
 
I have put the search for DSD recorder beyond DSD128 on standby for a while, so may well not know if there are now any more DSD256 recorders available besides Merging Technologies Horus and Hapi models. But gradually, they will show up.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 4:27 PM Post #3,857 of 17,336
   
Your approach seems to mirror that of these guys.

Yes, but with the following differences :
 
1. They have money
2. They can use facility of the university
3. They employ "service" of students as panel 
4. They had access to the best gear at the time
5. They had ABX software by Emil Berliner Studio
6. They could afford to present their work at AES - which was at the time conveniently in their home town.
 
Similarities include large bandwidth speakers (Technics SB-RX 50 in my case, also to 35 kHz or so) and Stax headphones.
 
I work alone, have to make living with what I do, will constantly invest little what I can in yet better recording chain, will design or modify my own gear and have to rely on my own ears. And was capable of converting quite a few musicians who were recording "conventionally" to now record with me. Particularly with vocal music, where any nuance is most easily heard. Over a course of approx 10 years or so since I started with a superbly modified Technics casette deck. DON'T laugh - I will re-record some of these analog masters to DSD128 and you will hear for yourself there is absolutely no place for laughter and ridicule when the cassette is done right.
 
I am not surprised that the best results were obtained with stereo on headphones and that surround speakers fared far less usable to discern the difference. This again corroborates my experience with setting up analog turntables - time and time again, I was disappointed by the sound ultimately achieved in the customer's home over loudspeakers - not even a pale shadow of resolution that same turntable was capable of on Stax Lambda Pro/SRM1MK2  combination. Yet I never decided to cut any corners in the quality of setting up TTs, despite being familiar with what to expect in the end. But I did quit carrying Stax combo around - because the disappointment with their own speakers was usually greater than joy of discovering how great records can sound.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 8:13 PM Post #3,858 of 17,336
Our ears have thresholds beyond which nothing matters any more. You can go ahead and up the sampling rate over and over again, but beyond a certain point it is moot. Regular old PCM is already beyond that threshold. Everything else is overkill.
 
If you plan to do a lot of processing and boosting volume levels in the mix, a little higher bitrate might help. But for listening to music, redbook is already overkill. That listening test proves it.
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 1:23 AM Post #3,859 of 17,336
  Our ears have thresholds beyond which nothing matters any more. You can go ahead and up the sampling rate over and over again, but beyond a certain point it is moot. Regular old PCM is already beyond that threshold. Everything else is overkill.
 
If you plan to do a lot of processing and boosting volume levels in the mix, a little higher bitrate might help. But for listening to music, redbook is already overkill. That listening test proves it.


analogsurviver believes ultrasounds are important, if you force yourself to accept the idea that they are, then you'll understand most of his arguments. as he is surprisingly rational and consistent past the ultrasound "detail".
of course accepting that ultrasounds do mater when listening to music is something that requires a good deal of imagination when like myself you start losing tones above 16.5khz.
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 6:46 AM Post #3,860 of 17,336
There's fault to be found on both sides in the ABX debate.
 
On the one hand you can point to this discussion by David Clark, inventor of the ABX switcher, posted in response to a critique of his methodology. He claims that his approach is magically immune to Type II errors (and it's a little worrying that the term seems novel to him) and states, with colossal disingenuousness, "we never formally conclude that any difference is inaudible". Yeah ... right ... He goes on to display difficulty in identifying what defines 'a trial' and attempts to inflate his numbers accordingly: "our tests do use a very large number of trials, we simply do not report each of them individually" (ORLY?). In an attempt to tug on our heartstrings, he bewails the difficulties that are faced: "large numbers of qualified listeners are hard to find." Sorry, but science doesn't award sympathy votes because your experiment was too hard to do properly. All he manages to do is demonstrate why engineers should stick to building things and leave the science to people who've been properly trained.
 
But while David Clark just has me rolling my eyes, John Atkinson can get me spitting in fury with pieces like this steaming pile of dung in which he states blind testing "represents the actual point where two opposed faiths clash," and goes on to play the 'teach the controversy' card by moaning about those who "wrap themselves in the flag of "objectivity," " If Atkinson wants to preach faith-based audio then he needs to come clean about it rather than pretending to any rationality, and plant his flag in the camp of the flying spaghetti monster.
 
There are areas in which the classic ABX test could be critiqued, the problem is that they exist only as hints and outlines.
 
The first is the 'golden ears' approach, which claims that some people have better acuity, either through natural variation or training, and are able to hear differences that other can't. The notion that humans vary in their perceptual abilities is hardly controversial - I have no doubt that a 16yr-old can hear, see, taste and smell better than me in my decrepitude. But if there's a difference, the first thing you should want to do is measure it. For instance, we have claims like this (from John Atkinson again) that a fellow editor had a 100% success rate on a blind test and could even identify the brand of amplifier 80% of the time. What's his reaction? Is it, 'Golly, this is an interesting result, let's repeat it with a lot more trials so we can be sure, and then do it with a range of other people to see if we can estimate how this variance is distributed'? No. This tiny result is taken as a 'win' for the home team and trumpeted from his editorial throne without thought of further exploration. Not even remotely good enough, John. Of course, one suspects that hifi magazines have to be careful with the whole 'golden ears' thing, as their primary function is to sell merchandise to consumers, and a result that states a difference that can be heard by some audio crackerjack may be imperceptible to the plebs with money in their pockets is probably not what they're looking for.
 
The second, and far more interesting, approach is to question whether ABX is testing the right thing.
 
Modern psycho-physiology is founded on an interactionist framework that has devolved fom early Gestalt ideas, in which we create models of the external world and continuously refine those models through integration of sensory stimuli. If I listen to an instrument I'm not hearing the fundamentals and overtones, the modulations and bilateral phase discrepancies, I'm hearing my interior model of what that instrument sounds like, and, subconsciously, I'm hearing how far the sensory stimuli differ from what my model tells me the instrument should sound like. The problem is that we know our models are wrong, and so our perceptual systems engage in a constant process of refining them based on the data coming in. The problem with that is that there's no easy way to judge which data should be incorporated into the model and which should be rejected as malformed or erroneous. If you know what a clarinet sounds like through long experience and then get presented with a recording in which everything above 5kHz has been removed, your system should be robust enough to realise that there's something wrong with the new data and you shouldn't expect clarinets to sound dull and lifeless in the future.
 
Testing this integrate-or-reject mechanism is hard, not least because there are still gaping holes in our understanding of perceptual physiology. It's possible to persue indirect methods, however, in which we attempt to measure how activation of error signals has an impact on other psychological mechanisms. One such example (which has been trotted out by a variety of manufacturers) is described here (Stereophile again, no surprise) in which a German psychologist apparently discovered marked differences in responses to a mood questionnaire between those listening to analog and digital systems in a blind test. This is certainly very interesting, but those looking for more details about this experiment will be frustrated. Searching for anything by Jürgen Ackermann yields a lot of articles on car steering, and there's a Jürgen Ackermann listed as a practising psychologist in Frankfurt, but no sign of any audio publication and nothing on the AES site, even though this was (apparently) performed as part of a PhD thesis - it would be rare, to say the least, for a reputable university to award a PhD for work that was not worthy of publication, and rarer still for a student not to seek to get published. I'd certainly be very interested if anyone manages to track this down but ... 'Show me the money!' is the phrase that comes to mind. I should also note that searching for 'Jürgen Ackermann' brings up a 'Some results may have been removed under data protection law in Europe' flag on Google in the UK which is ... strange, though this may relate to someone else.
 
There's certainly work that could be done outside the arena of ABX testing, it's just that no-one seems to be bothering to do it. Instead we have scraps and fragments that are accorded a significance far beyond their actual value. There are certainly interesting questions to ask, such as the significance of accuracy versus euponics, and what is euphonic anyway? But you do actually have to do the experiment. The value of ABX testing is that, being fairly simple, it has been done (and there are those who have done it properly instead of letting engineers kludge it). At the end of the day you have to go with the data that you've got. You always need to be open to new data, and it's always possible that new methods of testing will expose flaws in our underlying hypotheses, but until we actually have those data we don't really have anything to consider.
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 8:51 AM Post #3,861 of 17,336
   
But it's a function of the headphones/speakers, not the amplifier. Anyone using the term in relation to an amp, has a long row to hoe. 

 
 
I am totally serious. How important do you think crosstalk is with headphones?
 
There are tons of wires available for less than a meal at McDonalds that will do the job as well as any other set of wires. Cables don't matter.

 
The dangers of jumping to the latest page after not following the discussion for a while. I saw bigshot's quote but didn't bother to look up the context. Sorry for the intrusion, carry on trying to convince the same few people of something they want to disbelieve
smily_headphones1.gif

 
Jan 23, 2015 at 9:06 AM Post #3,863 of 17,336
SilentFrequency http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/downfall-hitler-reacts
http://downfall.jfedor.org/create/
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 9:30 AM Post #3,865 of 17,336
 
Modern psycho-physiology is founded on an interactionist framework that has devolved fom early Gestalt ideas, in which we create models of the external world and continuously refine those models through integration of sensory stimuli. If I listen to an instrument I'm not hearing the fundamentals and overtones, the modulations and bilateral phase discrepancies, I'm hearing my interior model of what that instrument sounds like, and, subconsciously, I'm hearing how far the sensory stimuli differ from what my model tells me the instrument should sound like. The problem is that we know our models are wrong, and so our perceptual systems engage in a constant process of refining them based on the data coming in. The problem with that is that there's no easy way to judge which data should be incorporated into the model and which should be rejected as malformed or erroneous. If you know what a clarinet sounds like through long experience and then get presented with a recording in which everything above 5kHz has been removed, your system should be robust enough to realise that there's something wrong with the new data and you shouldn't expect clarinets to sound dull and lifeless in the future.

 
This paragraph should be stickied. Our perception is a function of feedback, reinforcing past connections, weighting future growth. The problem is that there's a spectrum of sensory acuity and a vast array of experiences. Controlled listening tests work best when participants go through the same critical listening training process. The perverse irony is that audiophilia conditions people to expect differences to the extent that they compensate by strongly imposing the listening context on how they perceive. So they may well hear differences, but these differences have little to do with the sound that hits their ears.
 
Jan 23, 2015 at 9:58 AM Post #3,867 of 17,336
There are lots of audio videos on YT as probably expected but I've just watched something that states there is zero audible effect between a 1/4 inch and a 1/8 inch jack which I agree with totally but as 1/8 inch jack is way more popular for most devices, why do some headphone manufacturers (Sennheiser hd800 for a start) use the bigger 1/4 inch jacks?
 

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