[SilentFrequency]

 Sennheiser Surrounder - NEVER even heard about it !

This ^

Is a serious fashion offence!

Seriously, Sennheiser could no have made such a thing :eek:

 

[analogsurviver]

This ^

Is a serious fashion offence!

Seriously, Sennheiser could no have made such a thing

Well, after having cut the lacquer disc master for the Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture ( those cannons are legendary system destroyers, particularly notorious for phono cartridges jumping out of the groove altogether ...) using the Neumman cutting lathe/cutterhead system
 

 
........ - FIRE !!!! ..... ......

....ALMOST impossible to record and track - but ALWAYS never catched a rabbit 

.
 
Stan Ricker reported the fact to the Gotham Audio, representative for the Neumann cutting lathe for US.
 
Their response: THAT is impossible ! ( or something to that effect )
 
Stan Ricker: Well.... - I just did !
 
Sennheiser giulty as charged - they did it !
At the turn of the millenium - there are threads about it here on head-fi. I guess it will be gaining in value over time as there will not be much, if any competition.

 

[bigshot]

I had a Telarc LP of Bizet's Carmen Suite that had a bass drum whallop that was massively distorted. It was cut WAY out of spec, and I doubt that any turntable could track it properly. I didn't hear that recording without distortion until it was released on CD.

 

[SilentFrequency]

Well, after having cut the lacquer disc master for the Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture ( those cannons are legendary system destroyers, particularly notorious for phono cartridges jumping out of the groove altogether ...) using the Neumman cutting lathe/cutterhead system




........ - FIRE !!!! ..... ......

Stan Ricker reported the fact to the Gotham Audio, representative for the Neumann cutting lathe for US.

Their response: THAT is impossible ! ( or something to that effect )

Stan Ricker: Well.... - I just did !

Sennheiser giulty as charged - they did it !
At the turn of the millenium - there are threads about it here on head-fi. I guess it will be gaining in value over time as there will not be much, if any competition.

The white groove in the photo does not look uniform to the other ordinary grooves so I'm guessing that's the part of the cannons in the track you mention?

Why can't vinyl handle that part of the track to produce such distortion?

I'm guessing this maybe an example of the downsides of vinyl in extreme instances?

As for Sennheisers neck brace contraption, I guess anyone can have a bad day and maybe that was Sennheiser's, but seriously, it just looks so wrong how ever could their designers have ever thought such a thing could ever be right?

Edit: I guess Sennheiser have redeemed themselves ever since though

 

[stv014]

Originally Posted by charleski /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxFB5idDF1u5N0wxVGswbnFwTGM/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxFB5idDF1u5SXB4TWZwNkJzZms/view?usp=sharing

 
I made some recordings of these, but the files still need to be processed (extracted, time aligned, level matched, etc.) and packaged. The capacitors that were used are cheap 10 uF 50V electrolytic ones of this type, and the load impedance was 680 ohms (in parallel with ~4.3k line input impedance). This did result in a few dB of low frequency roll-off (which can be equalized), and the distortion at 20 Hz is about 0.01%, so slightly higher than in the Xonar D1 measurements, but with more lower order harmonics.

 

[analogsurviver]

  I had a Telarc LP of Bizet's Carmen Suite that had a bass drum whallop that was massively distorted. It was cut WAY out of spec, and I doubt that any turntable could track it properly. I didn't hear that recording without distortion until it was released on CD.

It certainly is possible to overcook the lacquer disc master in the bass - there is no phono cartridge capable of amplitudes cutterhead can without problems put onto a disc. Limit is the thickness of the lacquer, which ultimately limits the vertical movement/amplitude - that is why cutting engineers/companies prescribe the way the master for the LP release has to be prepared; bass reduced in overall level, minimum out-of-phase (vertical) information in the bass (effectively mono-ing the bass ) not to exceed the thickness of the lacquer, high frequencies rolled off/compressed/whatever-ed in order to make life easy and safe for the cutterhead, etc. Nasty stuff - but there are people that will go an extra mile in at least reducing the limitations by approaching the outer reaches of the equipment capability.
 
For the extreme extremes of bass on vynil, there is an undisputed king for almost 4 decades : Dynavector tonearm. Now in its latest guise, the DV 507 MK II : http://www.dynavector.com/products/tonearm/e_507mk2.html
Although I never saw one - and of course not heard either - it has a clear superiority over pretty much anything else ever commercially available. The original, DV 505, had even slightly more than critically damped horizontal resonance (please see description of DV 507 MK II above for eddy current damping, dynamic damping, etc ) - yielding ULTRA stable performance on even the most difficult bass passages that will unsettle anything else.
All is required is a cartridge that can track amplitude large as required for any given record. Audio Technicas and Grados ( at least some models ) could/can track amplitudes up to 120 micrometers@300 Hz - and should not have any problems tracking 1812 in Dynavector. The only good review with objective measurements appeared in French audio press in late 70s, being reprinted by Dynavector at about the same time, when DV Karat series of cartridges appeared. There was NO resonance below 20 Hz that could be measured - the response was even falling a little with decreasing frequency - something conventional arms with their +10+dB high Q resonances around 10 Hz can not even dream about. Thus Dynavector can achieve VERY flat response down to extremely low frequencies - depending on cartridge, it can be within +1 - 5 dB from 20 Hz to less than 5 Hz - where variations in  conventional arms using the same cartridge could well be + - 10 and more dB across the 5-20 Hz range which is the most important range for the turntable as far as all the resonance related problems of analog playback are concerned:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=1281
 
As of Telarc's 1812, there are at least TWO (maybe more ? ) "cuts", as the original one was too tough nut to track with most equipment available at the time and subsequent cut(s) was a bit moderated. I do not know the Carmen, but given the reputation Stan Ricker has I would be inclined that the recording should be playable - with Dynavector arm, at least. But admittedly, these Telarc Bass Concertos ARE the analog's toughest challenge and
 were challenged only by Miller & Kreisel direct to disk recordings of LARGE organ :  http://www.discogs.com/Lloyd-Holzgraf-The-Power-And-The-Glory-Volume-1/release/4537692
Again, this is something only Dynavector arm will play satisfactorily - without the aids like Shure Dynamic Stabilizer ( "brush"), Stanton/Pickering "brush", Discwasher's Disctracker
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/discwasher/disctraker.shtml
, Stax CS-2 Stabilyzer - and there was a device similar to Disctracker sold in England by Zerostat. Particularly the last piece, The Bells Of St. Anne de Beaupre by Alexander Russel is a system destroyer hors d'categorie; the fundamental of the organ used extended down to around 6 Hz - and if the tonearm/cartridge exhibit ANY resonance below 20 Hz, this tremolo
WILL get it; in extreme cases, there will be groove jumping, most "normal" arms WILL exhibit visible oscillations,
 only dynamic damping type arms ( few top Technics, Pioneer, Sony, JVC and Denon models ) will be relatively unscaved - but none can reproduce the extreme bass with the aplomb of the Dynavector arm. Expen$$ive - Ye$;
worth the money - Ye$, even more $o.
 
Dear Santa ...
 
PS: Here is the quandary both myself as well as Telarc found themselves when preparing the transfer of 
analog disc (me) to CD-R and master digital tape (Telarc) for the CD release of 1812 :
 
http://hifi-writer.com/wpblog/?p=2504
 
One HAS to decide - it is either intact cannons - and the rest of the 44.1/16 limited music quiet so down in level to the point of almost afterthought - or clipped cannons but music at least resembling itself. After that, I lost all desire to EVER transfer any vinyl to CD.
 
Vynil with a good combination of cartridge and tonearm plays just fine.

 

[cjl]

This subject was discussed some months ago on a thread, which I can't now find. It may have been the detail of this study or one similar, which showed that the effect of supersonic frequencies on brain activity was band specific. The testers were correlating the differences in frequency band of brain activity which enhanced the human perception of "good" feelings and "bad" feelings/mood and they identified 3 specific frequency bands. Iirc the lower supersonic frequencies actually depressed human mood, the middle frequencies were marginally depressive/neutral and the super high frequencies enhanced human mood. I forget the specific frequencies, but I do recall the top of the super high frequencies was 100kHz. and that the complete range was 22 kHz - 100kHz. The study specifically ruled out headphones, no matter how much of a **** they made you look, it had to be whole body immersion.
So there goes another theory for those just itching to claim golden ear status, headphones don't cut it and if you want to become really depressed listening to music, choose a hi rez format.

Nitpick here (sorry, I can't help myself...)
 
Supersonic = faster than the speed of sound
Hypersonic = much faster than the speed of sound (to the point that thermal effects become significant in the flow)
Ultrasonic = higher than audible frequencies
 
Oohashi (or however you spell his name) is also guilty of a misuse of terms in his paper, since he keeps calling it the "hypersonic effect", despite the fact that he is referring to ultrasonic sounds.

 

[Roly1650]

Nitpick here (sorry, I can't help myself...)

Supersonic = faster than the speed of sound
Hypersonic = much faster than the speed of sound (to the point that thermal effects become significant in the flow)
Ultrasonic = higher than audible frequencies

Oohashi (or however you spell his name) is also guilty of a misuse of terms in his paper, since he keeps calling it the "hypersonic effect", despite the fact that he is referring to ultrasonic sounds.

Nitpick duly noted! Yes your definitions are correct, sometimes sloppy is just that......sloppy. I'm getting to the age where oftentimes my train of thought leaves me at the station.

 

[cer]

  One HAS to decide - it is either intact cannons - and the rest of the 44.1/16 limited music quiet so down in level to the point of almost afterthought - or clipped cannons but music at least resembling itself. After that, I lost all desire to EVER transfer any vinyl to CD.

 
I understand that the cannons were already clipped on the master recording so it's just a case of how to disguise that. You can't really transfer that kind of stuff to vinyl so something definitely has to be done. CD on the other hand can handle it easily. The CD is clipped because the original recording was clipped and transfered to CD unaltered. Which isn't a good thing at all.
There's nothing on that vinyl that a decent transfer to a CD can't handle. Excess dynamic range is useless and 16 bit PCM has much more than enough for music. More than vinyl of course.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
I understand that the cannons were already clipped on the master recording so it's just a case of how to disguise that. You can't really transfer that kind of stuff to vinyl so something definitely has to be done. CD on the other hand can handle it easily. The CD is clipped because the original recording was clipped and transfered to CD unaltered. Which isn't a good thing at all.
There's nothing on that vinyl that a decent transfer to a CD can't handle. Excess dynamic range is useless and 16 bit PCM has much more than enough for music. More than vinyl of course.

I too understand that the master digital tape has to be clipped - but what I wrote unfortunately still holds true. Whatever and however the cannons on the LP record recorded - they ARE playable and if the peak on cannon shots is brought to just below 0 dB on 44.1/16 recorder, gets the music waaaaaaaay below normal levels compared to the similar music without cannons recorded to normal CDs. LPs or even MCs for that matter - and it loses in definition soooo badly that it is unlistenable compared to the "live" vinyl.
 
I will repeat the exercise to a DSD128 and 192/24 - and see if the CD bounced down from these will be any better. It should. As I got that LP from a friend to transfer to CD some years ago, I will have to ask him to lend it to me again - and this can take quite a while...

 

[limpidglitch]

Is a serious fashion offence!

Seriously, Sennheiser could no have made such a thing

 
All those Head-Fi memories…
 
I remember Duggeh was rather fond of those. This is him:
 

 
These days he's as elusive as Nessie herself, sadly.

 

[cjl]

  I too understand that the master digital tape has to be clipped - but what I wrote unfortunately still holds true. Whatever and however the cannons on the LP record recorded - they ARE playable and if the peak on cannon shots is brought to just below 0 dB on 44.1/16 recorder, gets the music waaaaaaaay below normal levels compared to the similar music without cannons recorded to normal CDs. LPs or even MCs for that matter - and it loses in definition soooo badly that it is unlistenable compared to the "live" vinyl.
 
I will repeat the exercise to a DSD128 and 192/24 - and see if the CD bounced down from these will be any better. It should. As I got that LP from a friend to transfer to CD some years ago, I will have to ask him to lend it to me again - and this can take quite a while...

If the peak of the cannons is brought to just below 0dB, the main music level is still such that it has plenty of available dynamic range and resolution. CDs are perfectly adequate, unless you're listening to the music so loud that you'll blow your speakers when the cannons hit.

 

[bigshot]

If we're talking about the Mercury with Dorati, the CD sound is extraordinary. Much better than the vinyl pressings.

 

[liamstrain]

  If the peak of the cannons is brought to just below 0dB, the main music level is still such that it has plenty of available dynamic range and resolution. 

 
I expect some of that is depending on the recording levels and mic placement. No?

 

[analogsurviver]

The white groove in the photo does not look uniform to the other ordinary grooves so I'm guessing that's the part of the cannons in the track you mention?

Why can't vinyl handle that part of the track to produce such distortion?

I'm guessing this maybe an example of the downsides of vinyl in extreme instances?

As for Sennheisers neck brace contraption, I guess anyone can have a bad day and maybe that was Sennheiser's, but seriously, it just looks so wrong how ever could their designers have ever thought such a thing could ever be right?

Edit: I guess Sennheiser have redeemed themselves ever since though

Somehow, the second photo of the Telarc cannons on vinyl has failed to show up - now please see the original post edited.
 
According to all specs of the recording equipment, 1812 at these levels should have been Mission Impossible - but that was not the case. Be it as it may, these grooves are non plus ultra in analog record mastering in BASS. At the other end of the spectrum, in extreme treble, it was Stan Ricker again who recorded - by fluke/mistake/unintentionally - bias frequency from the analog reel to reel recorder; > 100 kHz with mechanical means !!!! using one of the latest incarnations of cutting lathe/cutting head/electronics . Allegedly, that master with >100 kHz on it reflects light in totally different manner than even quadrophonic discs with 50 kHz carrier signal - let alone normal stereo records that are all we are used to see.
 
I guess that form follow function - and see no harm done in Sennheiser's attempt to pursue their dream - which does look "slightly unconventional" for anything remotely resembling headphones. And your guess has been fullfiled by the now many times over - it was an oddity I discovered only today.