Testing audiophile claims and myths
May 18, 2015 at 10:52 AM Post #5,956 of 17,336
Oh, I've been there so many times by now ( in real audio hardware, not a school textbook example ) that I know no ABX is really required for that.


It's required in Sound Science.


But, I will present a circuit(s) that anyone with reasonable knowledge can build by his/herself and ABX check - last time I checked, The Almighty Computer (and mouseclickers attempting to emulate audio with it ) was still not capable of transmitting the real hardware around the globe - with a click on the mouse.


I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.


Yes, I know what ABX is. Even with this bottom of the line switchbox, it is possible to do a proper DBT/ABX - if another person is connecting the DUTs out of your sight that are level matched to within 0.1 dB - which the proposed circuit I have in mind should have no problem in achieving.


That's not double blind. Double blind is what the DB stands for in DBT.


There are three inputs on this switchbox - and you can always have A, B, and either A or B as X - connected in any permutation of possibilities. It is also the cheapest way you can test interconnect cables - by having a Y RCA adaptor(s) at the source and doing an ABX of cables. For this, the level of componentry used in this box may well be too low - but in principle it works.


As long as the person administering the test has to set which device is to be X, then it's no longer double blind.

se
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:05 AM Post #5,957 of 17,336
For example, if you listen to a Schiit Asgard and a Schiit Lyr, they sound very different...


Just a reminder that this is the Sound Science forum.


...with the Lyr sounding distinctly what many of us would call "tubey". (On the Lyr, headphones that sound harsh on other amps tend to sound smoother and mellower, and voices sound very smooth, but sounds like cymbals sound blurry and dulled; I assume it's due to a combination of a slightly rolled off high frequency response, and a solid dose of added second harmonics, but I've never actually measured it to confirm that).


Slightly rolled off high frequency response? What's the -3 dB of the Lyr? And what headphones/loudspeakers are you using that are flat all the way out to where the Lyr starts rolling off?

se
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:09 AM Post #5,959 of 17,336
We're working on the website right now - and we're still finishing up some details on the metalwork and packaging. We showed them at Axpona Chicago, and they should be up on the website in a few weeks. The first two will be the "Big EGo" and "Little EGo". Both are USB only (and USB powered); both support PCM only - up to 24/384; both have a nice (chip-based) headphone amp; and both have three selectable digital filters and a headphone blend mode; and both can either be used in UAC2 mode (which required drivers on a PC) up to 24/384, or in UAC1 mode (driverless) up to 24/96. Both have a row of blue LEDs that show you the sample rate (and a red LED for UAC1 mode).

The Little EGo, which only has a single headphone output, is about 4-3/4 x 1-3/4 x about 1/2 inches, and will be priced at $169; the Big EGo, which also has separate line and Toslink outputs, is a tiny bit bigger, and will be priced at $219. Both are solid black-anodized aluminum, and are made here in the USA. The EGo Trip will be a lot smaller, have less features, and be priced at $119.


That sounds great! I'll look forward to seeing reviews about them. :)
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:11 AM Post #5,960 of 17,336
 
Recording live performances from multiple mikes and laying down multiple tracks is an art and a science.  Very hard to do well enough so that when the mixing is done in the studio something that resembles a live performance with a sound stage and instrument placement can be heard correctly.  The only way it happens is with a lot of expertise at processing and tweaking.  Another alternative is to stereo mike and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes it works, most times not.
 
The mechanisms, physics, anatomy, and brain-processing of hearing are often over-looked by audiophiles.  For example, I am amazed that people describe the vertical image they perceive when they hear a recording through one DAC that isn't there when they hear it through another.  Animals with ears located on the same vertical plane don't perceive vertical auditory information unless they tilt their head.  So are they hearing a tall soundstage with one DAC, or are they leaning their head differently? Not saying that there aren't imbedded clues about vertical images in music but if people are hearing them it's because they've moved their ears. There are so many examples like this we ought to write a review of how hearing works and make it sticky on every page.  We could for example turn our attention to a statement i just read which I think was "as jitter is lowered you get more bass and smoother trebles" (http://www.head-fi.org/t/766347/schiit-yggdrasil-impressions-thread/45#post_11609682).  Jeez, I didn't know that, somewhere I read that the jitter present in modern digital equipment was inaudible.

 
If you think about it logically, the most (only) accurate way to record something should be to use a pair of microphones in the ears of a simulated head (a binarual recording) - since the microphones should then be recording exactly what our ears would hear if we were there. Of course, this only works if you then play the recording through headphones (with speakers you get an extra stage of mixing of left and right between your speakers and your ears).
 
However, there are several very good reasons for doing it other ways. First, with a binaural recording, you have no opportunity to "adjust" the recording later - you can't turn one instrument or another up or down, and you certainly can't re-record one or another later to "fix a problem". Second, some instruments just don't seem to come out sounding right when you do it that way. (And, again, you have no way to adjust things. When you record a drum set using several microphones, you can alter the balance in the mix between the microphone near the cymbal, which records more "bite", and the one near the bass drum head, which records more "thump" - you can use the ability either to deliberately make the sound different, or to "adjust" it to sound more like it really did to begin with.) Finally, each of our ears, and even the shape of our heads, is different. So a binaural recording made using a perfect copy of my head and ears may not deliver the right cues to you - because your head and ears are different than mine. Our brains have a remarkable ability to "figure out" what all those cues mean - which means that we have an equally remarkable ability to notice when they're wrong.
 
"Where we hear a sound as coming from" seems to be based on a complex combination of frequency response and phase. A sound that you hear that actually originates from "up and to the left" arrives at each of your ears at different times, and the frequency response is altered as it wraps around your head. However, even that is an oversimplification. In fact, the sound reaches your left ear directly, after passing the curves of your ear, and some of it reaches your right ear after wrapping around your head, while some of it reaches your right ear after bounding off the wall to your right - and the proportions, delays, and frequency response of each varies - and all of those things are different for me than you because our head and ear shapes are different.
 
One very well know way in which this complicates things concerns the delay times associated with reverberance. If we hear a sound, followed by echoes of that same sound, how our brains interpret those echoes depends on how long the delay is. Echoes that arrive within a few millisecods are not identified as echoes - our brains hear them as "a live room"; echoes that arrive after a long time sound like distinct echoes; and our brains use this information both to judge whether a room is "live" or "dead", and to get an idea how large the room is. Most of us can figure out a lot about the size and shape of a room by listening to the echoes.
 
The subject is actually very complex - and it is NOT perfectly understood yet.  
 
In the context of DACs, different DACs produce different outputs. With the same impulse signal, one DAC may produce 2 mS of post-ringing and no pre-ringing, while another may produce 1 mS of pre-ringing  and 1 mS of post-ringing. In both of those cases, you have extra signal - the ringing - that "doesn't belong" - which counts as distortion of some sort. We now have to introduce another concept called "masking". What that means is that, if a very quiet noise happens just before or just after a loud noise, we don't hear the quiet noise (we say "the quieter noise is masked by the louder noise"). However, how masking works is very complicated. How well a louder noise masks a quieter one depends on how the frequencies of the noises relate, their relative loudnesses, and their relative timing - and all that depends on frequency range in which they occur. So, for example, a 1 kHz noise at a certain level will entirely mask a 500 Hz noise that occurs within a certain number of milliseconds of it, and is a certain number of dB quieter. And masking is not symmetrical in time; a loud noise masks a quiet noise of similar frequency that occurs AFTER it much better, and for a longer period of time, than one that occurs before it.
 
So here's the theory about how those two DACs could produce different "height information"...... Both DACs produce some extra ringing that shouldn't be there. However, with some particular signal, one of those DACs produces 1 mS of ringing before the signal, and 1 mS of ringing after it, while the other DAC produces 2 mS of ringing after the signal, and none before it. Since it is known that masking works better when the quiet signal is after the loud one, this means that, due to masking, the ringing on the DAC with 2 mS of post-ringing is LESS AUDIBLE than the ringing on the DAC with 1 mS of pre-ringing and 1 mS of post-ringing.
 
(Just to be perfectly clear, the fact that this ringing exists, and that it is different for different DAC filters, is not at all in question. It is easy to measure, and easy to demonstrate, and is shown and spelled out on most DAC chip spec sheets. It can also be deliberately exaggerated to the point where it is clearly audible to anyone. The ONLY question is whether specific differences present in specific real-world DAC chips are audible or not.) 
 
Now, assuming that our brain interprets the sound of that ringing as "height information" - perhaps because it mimics the reverberance information of a high ceiling - the DAC with the less well-masked ringing makes music sound like the source has more height. (So, even if we don't hear the ringing as a sound, the differences in the ringing on the two DACs produces a signal that tricks the "height calculators" in our brains to perceive different room sizes or instrument locations.) And, yes, this is one of those situations where the claim is that a cue that we can't "hear" still influences our "experience" in other ways. Unfortunately, this is a very complicate subject and, contrary to what some people seem to want to think, it is not perfectly understood yet.
 
(Note that I'm not necessarily saying that the theory is correct - however, that IS the theory, and nobody has proven that it is NOT correct yet.)
 
To test this theory, we would have to compare not only whether people hear a difference between those filters, but whether the people who claim to hear a difference claim that one "always produces a higher image than the other" or not...
 
It's easy enough to prove to yourself that the situation is very complex. Just put one finger or earplug in one of your ears. You will find that, even though it may not be accurate, you WILL still have  a strong sense of where music and other sounds are coming from - the world does not "turn into mono" like you may think it would when you can only hear with one ear, so there are obviously lots of cues that your brain is using besides the relative timing and levels between your two ears.
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:30 AM Post #5,961 of 17,336
 
snip->
 
The really key problem as I see it is the death of the expert and expert knowledge. 
 
snip->

 
There's your subject for a study. We are in the middle of a huge move towards what some people call "democratization" - which is a nice way of saying that we are moving towards caring more about what "most of our friends think" than what "experts" think. (We don't trust "the experts" so, instead, we just follow the herd.)
 
Is Product A better than Product B? Don't ask an expert; see which one is "trending" or which one "has better reviews".... both ways of saying "see what everyone else is doing".  Unfortunately, this is a strategy that works far better in some situations than in others, and is relatively easily exploited. Asking your friends how well they liked Product X, or Restaurant Y works pretty well - as long as their tastes are similar to yours (and as long as the "500 great reviews" weren't really just fakes put there to trick you). Likewise, you're much safer getting medical advice from a real doctor, but you're a lot better off trusting your doctor to the one who is being paid to do the TV commercial, and you really should avoid trusting the actor on TV who just looks like a doctor.
 
In today's world, it's become really difficult to tell which experts you can trust, and even which proclaimed experts really are experts at all. There's also the slight problem of timeliness - reality may not change, but science does, because science is actually "only" our current knowledge about reality. so you have to consider how current a "fact" is, and how current the knowledge of your "experts" is.
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:33 AM Post #5,962 of 17,336
Wonder where Keith is getting these transducers that are flat out to 100 kHz? Must be classified military technology.
biggrin.gif


se

Area 51. Hey, that sounds like a great name for a company that makes Audiophile products.
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:43 AM Post #5,963 of 17,336
(Note that I'm not necessarily saying that the theory is correct - however, that IS the theory, and nobody has proven that it is NOT correct yet.)


It's not someone else's job to prove that the theory is NOT correct. It is the job of the person proposing the theory to prove that it IS correct.

And just because the theory hasn't been disproved doesn't give it any greater chance of it being correct.

You can sit churning out theories until the cows come home. They don't mean SQUAT until someone actually shows them to be correct.

Tthat's all the "high end" has to offer. A huge pile of rotting, unsubstantiated theories. But that's ok, because theories alone are enough to impress those the industry is trying to sell product to. It's disgusting.

se
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:49 AM Post #5,965 of 17,336
There's your subject for a study. We are in the middle of a huge move towards what some people call "democratization" - which is a nice way of saying that we are moving towards caring more about what "most of our friends think" than what "experts" think. (We don't trust "the experts" so, instead, we just follow the herd.)

Is Product A better than Product B? Don't ask an expert; see which one is "trending" or which one "has better reviews".... both ways of saying "see what everyone else is doing".  Unfortunately, this is a strategy that works far better in some situations than in others, and is relatively easily exploited. Asking your friends how well they liked Product X, or Restaurant Y works pretty well - as long as their tastes are similar to yours (and as long as the "500 great reviews" weren't really just fakes put there to trick you). Likewise, you're much safer getting medical advice from a real doctor, but you're a lot better off trusting your doctor to the one who is being paid to do the TV commercial, and you really should avoid trusting the actor on TV who just looks like a doctor.

In today's world, it's become really difficult to tell which experts you can trust, and even which proclaimed experts really are experts at all. There's also the slight problem of timeliness - reality may not change, but science does, because science is actually "only" our current knowledge about reality. so you have to consider how current a "fact" is, and how current the knowledge of your "experts" is.


To a certain extent I agree. Online customer reviews on sites like Amazon with social moderation (e.g., thumbs up/thumbs down voting) have a lot of weight with consumer purchases now. And that's good for the many consumer products for which there were often no reviews easily available in a print-only media age. And they do come in handy sometime for audio equipment purchases. But one has to know how to evaluate the credibility of the individual poster. It does seems like many users gravitate toward these over professional reviews, and tend not to know how to weight and evaluate them. Ironically, many consumers seem to trust amateur YouTube reviewers, even though they have no professional experience nor may have very little long term experience with the type of product. One popular youtube reviewer I know of has primary credentials that he helped his father install home theater systems (lol).

That being said, in the pre-Internet age, what reviews did we have to rely on? Magazine reviews, right? What necessarily made those reviewers expert? Some were journalist/writers who specialized in doing reviews that may or may not have any audio science training or knowledge, and you can tell some are better than others. And then because magazines require ads for revenue and free equipment for reviews, audio reviews in magazines are often highly questionable. Many audio reviewers have been criticized for always being positive, for not pointing out negatives. This is still true for some now Internet based audio review publications. And then we KNOW many of the professional reviewers love to "hear" differences between equipment that measures accurate, transparent, where any distortion should be inaudible.

So was there ever an easily found, reliable base of "experts" to listen to for reviews on audio equipment? I think you guys might be lamenting a guilded age in which people paid attention to audio experts that never was.
 
May 18, 2015 at 11:52 AM Post #5,968 of 17,336
  And even more silly comment from your part.
 
Obviously, you will have - personally -  to learn it the hard way. Smoldering soldering iron in hand, not  a computer and mouse.

I'm an EE that was a technician with a soldering iron when in high school. I may have learned a bit more than yourself. That doesn't change the fact that you keep on making weird claims and never backing it up with fact. Just keeping on with the same pattern. Why do you do that?
 
May 18, 2015 at 12:10 PM Post #5,969 of 17,336
  I'm an EE that was a technician with a soldering iron when in high school. I may have learned a bit more than yourself. That doesn't change the fact that you keep on making weird claims and never backing it up with fact. Just keeping on with the same pattern. Why do you do that?

Because you are the most stubborn one claiming that "nothing" is audible.
 
I have much better things to do than to fiddle with those who would do anything to defend the status quo. I can not help if good equipment is - and will remain to be - costly, I can not help if manufacturers keep cutting corners in subsequent models ( that is why the very first of the breed,  where the goal was to show something works, was made best it could be - and later it is skimped on everything that can reduce cost ). And can not help if most recordings available are not up to the task of revealing the differences I can hear on daily basis.
 
But I can not keep quiet regarding "this is not audible, that is not audible, you have to be bat in order to perceive it, etc - just look at your own posts for the entire list.
 
I was recording last Monday (acoustic guitar), last Thursday and Wednesday ( modern music festival), on Thursday I was literally charging batteries - for recordings on Saturday ( organ and harp in that little chapel ) and Sunday ( mixed choir in a large church ). In between I went to Munich High End 2015 - 650 km by train overnight in both directions - the only day open to public I could afford to attend.
 
You'll get everything promised - ASAP. I can not possibly afford to put this thread in front of authoring the CDs from these and previous recordings from this month and end of April. 
 
May 18, 2015 at 12:17 PM Post #5,970 of 17,336
Because you are the most stubborn one claiming that "nothing" is audible.


Do you deny that expectation bias is a potential problem in observing difference between electronics? If not, how do you know that what you claim is true?
 

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